# What can you say to a website like this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465 "2005-04-28T00:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/81 "2005-04-29T16:49:07Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How does one ‘earn’ the right to say what one wants? By killing people unquestioningly for an oligarchy that will inevitably forget you when it’s time for you to collect the benefits they promised you in twenty years? > > This guy is an idiot, not because he doesn’t support the troops, but because he doesn’t realize that there is no point for them to pay taxes because their salaries are paid by taxes, and overseas they aren’t under the jurisdiction of any state. > > If the troops are fighting for a cause I don’t believe in, they are going directly against my wishes. I cannot in good conscience support them. I would support deserters, but I don’t support troops fighting over there. I have family in the military and I care about them, but I don’t support the war, and I don’t support us having the large military that we do, therefore I do not support the troops. Any contribution I make to the economy supports the troops I suppose, so I guess I am supporting the troops monetarily. The only thing I support is bringing the troops home and moving our economy away from being a military industrial complex. > > You made the choice to join the military, if you believe in the cause you are fighting, then more power to you, but don’t expect me to support you, because it’s not my cause, and I disagree with it. I think that you are in the wrong, and I think that you are personally responsible for everyone you kill. > > This doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be fine with you as a person, but your military service isn’t something that I admire. > > If you were in the National Guard, and defending us on our own soil, then you’d have my full support, I’d probably even fight next to you. > > Get used to it people don’t like this war, and the people that don’t like the war are probably not going to support you. > > Erek Well said, my friend. Well said. My sentiments exactly. I don’t, and never have, believed in the concept of “My country, right or wrong”. It is _because_ I’m an American that I can say that (theoretically) without fear of repercussions. You don’t earn these rights. They are yours simply by being born in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/82 "2005-04-29T17:02:50Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > Oh shit, sorry op. I did indeed intend to pit the asshole and his website, not you. > > SkipMagic: my rationale stems from Jefferson’s quote “The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants, else it will whither and die.” The freedoms and ‘rights’ (again, they are limited extensively by other legislation in the US, which ain’t necessairly a bad thing) granted by the Constitution were earned by soldiers long past and forgotten, and will be earned daily by soldiers not yet born. I’m not stating that civilians do not contribute, but the fundamental freedom itself would not exist if not for people willing to die for it (cuz folks out there would indeed take it from you if they could.) > > PS: The website owner is still an asshole. Being a soldier still does not make you “more” of a citizen than the rest of us. We need each other. Soldiers don’t survive without citizens any more than citizens can survive without soldiers. Simply going and fighting a war doesn’t make it the best thing to do for the welfare of those citizens. And in this case, I can see nothing but trouble on the horizon for our country. The fundamental freedom would not exist if people didn’t want it to. Defending it with bullets is secondary to defending the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/83 "2005-04-29T17:16:37Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > I’d just like to point out that the sentiments that **mswas** expressed are throughly disturbing to me. I completely disagree with the war in Iraq, I think that Bush is a terrible president, but the idea of holding soldiers responsible for those they kill in iraq is asinine and fucked up. > > Sure, those soldiers chose to join the military (although some may not have had much choice there), but they do not have the option to chose to not go to Iraq, and for the the sake of having a functional military, this is how it needs to be. When you join the military, you put your trust in the leaders of the country to use you appropriately, and to not waste your life on unworthy causes. Sometimes, though it does happen. Joining the military for reasons other than defending America can have some pretty shitty repercussions, can’t it? This is one of those times. > [@](#): > > Now, there are cases where soldiers could and should be held responsible for their actions abroad, but to say that you hold them personally responsible for any and all deaths caused in the course of duty is plain dumb. They weren’t forced into it. These are volunteer warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/84 "2005-04-29T17:38:54Z")
So what? Unless an order given to a soldier is clearly illegal, he is obligated to follow it. And that holds true whether that soldier is a volunteer or not. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/85 "2005-04-29T17:48:06Z")
> [@scoundrel sanswater](#): > > Then why, oh why, doesn’t the military dispose of Bush? > He clearly tries to trample and/or “amend” the constitution as he sees fit. > He is using the powers of state against his own citizenry. > People are being interrogated because of things they say on message-boards. > People are being held without fair trials. 1: Because a coup d’etat is treason. Remember, that’s kind of illegal. 2:Trample or ammend? Um, that right is held by the Congress. As far as his trampling, huh? Where? When? 3: Using the powers of the state against the citizenry? Again, where, when? In fears of sounding like a board ass, cite please? 4: People being interrogated for what they say on message boards. Trust me, if what you’re saying is inflammatory enough to catch the eye of the FBI, then you need to be interrogated. Just like I said to Erek before, you ain’t that important. 5: Just whom are you speaking about? The prisoners down at GitMo? If so, please remember that those motherfuckers are lucky. Accoring to the Geneva Conventions of 1945 (as ammended,) an individual who is captured engaging in combat activities without being in uniform are allowed to be executed without trial. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/86 "2005-04-29T17:49:08Z")
Thank you Mr. Moto. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/87 "2005-04-29T18:14:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So what? Unless an order given to a soldier is clearly illegal, he is obligated to follow it. And that holds true whether that soldier is a volunteer or not. He’s still responsible…obligated by military law or not. Volunteer or not. He has the option to say no. Many have and I’m sure many more will. Given the option between killing someone for a reason I thought was wrong or going to jail? Feh. I’d do the time. At least you eventually get out of that prison. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/88 "2005-04-29T18:32:06Z")
> [@fushj00mang](#): > > 1: Because a coup d’etat is treason. Remember, that’s kind of illegal. So, basically, if the President and Congress turned out to be enemies of the Constitution, you couldn’t do anything because it would be treason. Essentially, your oath is worthless. Let’s face it, the people you fight will be the ones that the president and the military higher-ups decide are the enemies. And chances are, you’ll unquestioningly agree with them and follow your orders. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/89 "2005-04-29T18:33:14Z")
Sorry, I can’t agree. I’m respectful of the tradition of pacifism and conscientious objection in this country. I’m willing to bet I’m better aware both of the history of this and the implications of it in the modern age, given the thought and training I’ve given the subject for my position on my local Selective Service board. However, once the military member gets into the combat zone, or on a plane, or on a ship, he had better be able to follow orders and do his job. Failure to do so can have consequences far beyond a jail term for him - it can get him, his buddies or his shipmates killed. There are lots of cases of conspicuous military heroism - where one man or woman, through hard work, training, and courage, saved lives and achieved almost impossible objectives. I have tried to spotlight some of these heroes here. Accepting that one person can make a huge difference for the positive in a war zone leads to an unavoidable conclusion though, that one person can get many others killed if he screws up. Now, you might eventually get out of prison, but you’d have to live with that knowlege for the rest of your life. Whether you’re a volunteer or a conscript, you had better be able to fight before you get to combat, and you have to fight once you get there. If you can’t do that, you have an obligation to not join up, or to become a CO. So no, sorry. The soldier in the scenario you described doesn’t have the option to say no. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/90 "2005-04-29T19:13:35Z")
**Mr. Moto** , if soldiers do not have the option of saying now, what exactly does that make them? But I don’t buy your logic, anyway. If a soldier says ‘no’ will there be consequences? Yes. But by the same token, you don’t get a magic pass on morality just because you’re following orders. It just doesn’t work that way. If you do something wrong because you were ordered to, you’ve still done something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/91 "2005-04-29T19:24:56Z")
It makes them warriors, of course. I didn’t join the military to learn knitting, you know. We generally leave that to the Air Force. I’m not saying you leave your morality at the door when you join, and the military specifically forbids soldiers from following unlawful orders. As an example, if an officer were to order his subordinates to violate the Geneva Convention - they couldn’t legally obey. What I am saying is that if you have a moral problem being a soldier in general, you have no damn business in the military. I’m surprised this is a controversial comment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/92 "2005-04-29T19:30:55Z")
Incidentally, this is what the military has to say about following orders. From the Uniform Code of Military Justice: > [@](#): > > ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER. > Any person subject to this chapter who– > (1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or > (2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; > shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct. Now, in practice an imposition of the death penalty for disobeying an order is rare - a less severe punishment is typically imposed in cases severe enough to warrant court martial. Neverless, it is a severe matter. ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/93 "2005-04-29T22:20:23Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I didn’t join the military to learn knitting, you know. We generally leave that to the Air Force. Hey, you can take that attitude and shove it. The USAF is the only branch which can say “Whole planet destroyed in 45 minutes or your money back!” > [@Neurotik](#): > > So, basically, if the President and Congress turned out to be enemies of the Constitution, you couldn’t do anything because it would be treason. Essentially, your oath is worthless. Let’s face it, the people you fight will be the ones that the president and the military higher-ups decide are the enemies. No, it’s not. You seem to forget that Bush et al are the duly elected government of the United States. We follow their orders. Not unquestiongly, but the questions that you bring up had better be good, or else you will be brought up on charges. I forget who it was, but some joker in the Army refused to wear a blue UN cap with his uniform when his battalion was sent to Yugoslavia. He refused to obey a lawful order and recieved (I believe 30 days restriction and a reduction in rank) a punishment. If the Federal Government suddenly started giving orders to, say, bomb San Francisco, do you believe that the CinC USAFACC would carry out that order? No. Then he’d be relieved. And his vice would say “no.” And he’d be relieved, until at some point some jackass captain or major says “Sure, why not?” and issues orders to his flights. Then, his flight officers would be like “WTF?! Oh hell no!” and ‘relieve’ him of his post. Sorry, but stuff moves up and down the chain of command. It gets stuck somewhere if there’s something wrong with it. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/94 "2005-04-29T22:51:20Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I didn’t join the military to learn knitting, you know. We generally leave that to the Air Force. HAY! I take offense to that. I get paid to build things that facilitate the killing of people and the blowing of shit up. I’m RED HORSE and I’m damned proud. Will I take incoming fire? I will–not much of a choice once it’s launched in my general direction. Will I return that incoming fire? If I’m not too busy with my new quilt, yer damn straight I will! Tripler Oh, and we _can’t_ knit. The TSA won’t allow our needles on rotator aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/95 "2005-04-29T23:07:39Z")
I think most folks at the SDMB know that I am definitely a left-leaning liberal (hey, I’m from Massachusetts). You also may know I have participated in _and_ started numerous George “Dubya” Bush-bashing threads. Yes, my opinion of “Dubya” is, oh … something less than flattering. 😃 (He’s a jerk, okay?) So, when I side with **AirmanDoors** and **Mr Moto** it is _not_ because of any conservative ideology. As for politicians voting against a certain bill, that is not always an indication of their beliefs. (If someone votes against an anti-pollution bill, it could be that the legislation does not go far enough). As for disobeying orders or plotting a coup d’etat? I think either course of action would be _extremely_ inadvisable. The US military takes a VERY DIM view of insubordination or mutiny. The movie the “Caine Mutiny” states that the US Navy has never had a mutiny. Actually it had one. Wanna find out what happened? [http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/USS%20Somers.htm](http://users.bestweb.net/~rg/execution/USS%20Somers.htm) Also, the US Constitution is NOT in effect when you are in the military. As Mr Moto pointed out, you are governed by the rules of the “Uniform Code of Military Justice”. Try exercising your “right” to free speech in the military. Gene Hackman, a submarine captain in the movie “Crimson Tide”, puts it quite well when he says “We’re here to preserve democracy - not to practice it”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/96 "2005-04-29T23:49:42Z")
All I wanted to see was a post that said: \*I’ll serve my duty honorably and obey the orders I am given to advance the cause of the coaltion in Iraq. In that way I will support the war. That doesn’t mean I have to blind myself to the a pack of lies selling this war, and that these are an appeal to the lowest and worst instincts of the American public.\* Was that too much to ask? Apparently it was. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/97 "2005-04-30T01:12:50Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Was that too much to ask? Apparently it was. That’s essentially what **Airman** said in post 62. > [@fushj00mang](#): > > Then, his flight officers would be like “WTF?! Oh hell no!” and ‘relieve’ him of his post. Sorry, but stuff moves up and down the chain of command. It gets stuck somewhere if there’s something wrong with it. Sorry, but I know too many people in the military for me to believe you. I’ve overheard two generals discussing with a high level Singaporean naval officer how they wished the US military could deal with anti-war protestors the same way that Singapore does after hearing the Singaporean officer bragging that in Singapore, protestors are simply rounded up and thrown in jail. If it was just a random nut wanting to bomb San Fran for no reason tomorrow, sure, nothing would happen. It’s too beyond the pale and too obviously crazy. But I think that Abu Gharaib and how the military handled shows the respect (or lack thereof) the higher ups have for the Geneva Codes or basic human rights. A few scapegoats to appease the public and a whitewash. No, there’s little doubt that if it comes down to defending my freedoms from the government, the military is most definitely not going to be on my side. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/98 "2005-04-30T01:14:42Z")
Fuck Godwin! This thread is yet one more illustration of why Hitler was able to do what he did. “Why are you murdering countless innocent Iraqis?” “Uh…just following orders, Sir.” ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/99 "2005-04-30T01:26:56Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Was that too much to ask? Apparently it was. > [@Neurotik](#): > > That’s essentially what **Airman** said in post 62. After the event. Sorry but I’m not about to give ‘props’ when someone admits what is a matter of public proof. That said, to his credit **Airman** hasn’t the cowardice to deny what’s evident or join the whitewash. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/100 "2005-04-30T03:38:11Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > All I wanted to see was a post that said: > > \*I’ll serve my duty honorably and obey the orders I am given to advance the cause of the coaltion in Iraq. In that way I will support the war. > > That doesn’t mean I have to blind myself to the a pack of lies selling this war, and that these are an appeal to the lowest and worst instincts of the American public.\* > > Was that too much to ask? Apparently it was. Gee, when this conservative Republican was sitting at an air base in Italy, pounding out aircrew briefs for recce missions over Bosnia and monitoring voice and data comms, do you really think I supported Clinton or his Yugoslavia policy politically all the way? Or was I just supporting a military mission operationally? You didn’t see a post to this effect because I thought it went without saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465.md?page=6)