# What Christian denominations consider Mormons as Christians too? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258 "2010-05-13T02:15:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/21 "2012-09-21T00:33:48Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I don’t understand how “Mormons will not qualify under the first criterion.” They are baptized “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” They have a very different understanding of the relationships between tF, tS, and tHG compared to Catholics and most other Christians, but whose rule is the above Rule #1, and did the maker of that rule define “Christian Trinity” in such a way as to exclude the LDS Godhead? It’s discussed in detail in the cite that **Kimmy\_Gibler** gave. According to that author, as far as the RCC is concerned, LDS doctrine proposes three separate deities that act together, rather than a triune deity as in RCC belief. Since (in this view) the LDSs do not believe in the same Holy Trinity the RCC does, their baptisms will not be valid in the RCC. > [@](#): > > The formula used by the Mormons might seem at first sight to be a Trinitarian formula. The text states: “Being commissioned by Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement. There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. One is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony. The very word divinity has only a functional, not a substantial content, because the divinity originates when the three gods decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about human salvation. This divinity and man share the same nature and they are substantially equal. God the Father is an exalted man, native of another planet, who has acquired his divine status through a death similar to that of human beings, the necessary way to divinization[. The cite goes into more detail here.] Four gods are directly responsible for the universe, three of whom have established a covenant and thus form the divinity. > > As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2. […] > > Such doctrinal diversity, regarding the very notion of God, prevents the minister of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from having the intention of doing what the Catholic Church does when she confers Baptism, that is, doing what Christ willed her to do when he instituted and mandated the sacrament of Baptism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/22 "2012-09-21T00:47:18Z")
Slow night in Quebec? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/23 "2012-09-21T00:47:28Z")
Ahhh, I get it. The Mormon trinity, while mysterious and confusing and self-contradicting, isn’t _nearly_ as mysterious and confusing and self-contradicting and dizzying as the RCC trinity. Therefore, when Mormons baptize in the name if the father, son, and holy ghost, they don’t really mean it. Thanks for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/24 "2012-09-21T00:54:02Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Therefore, when Mormons baptize in the name if the father, son, and holy ghost, they don’t really mean it. Not “they don’t really mean it,” but “they mean something different than we do.” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/25 "2012-09-21T01:16:45Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Ahhh, I get it. The Mormon trinity, while mysterious and confusing and self-contradicting, isn’t _nearly_ as mysterious and confusing and self-contradicting and dizzying as the RCC trinity. Therefore, when Mormons baptize in the name if the father, son, and holy ghost, they don’t really mean it. > > Thanks for clearing that up. 😃 Seriously though, the issue that they don’t mean it. The issue is that they are baptising in the name of an entirely different entity to which they have given the same name. That actually makes sense, as much as anything can make sense. To give an imperfect analogy. If someone named their dog “the Flag of the United States”, and they named their cat “the Republic for which it stands”, they could swear allegiance to their pets all they liked, but nobody would accept that they had actually taken the oath. Sure, the words are identical, but the concepts aren’t in any way the same. In the same way, the LDS trinity isn’t in any sense the same entity as the RC trinity. It has the same name/names, but it apparently doesn’t share anything else in common. The God part presumably isn’t even eternal or the original creator. That’s a pretty clear proof that the entities are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/26 "2012-09-21T01:35:48Z")
Do the Roman, Eastern, and all the Protestant churches have identical trinities? Do their differing theologies make them pseudo-Christian too? How about the JWs and Adventists? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/27 "2012-09-21T01:51:56Z")
Catholics and classical Protestants–Lutherans, Calvinists (Presbyterians), Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, etc.–pretty much do agree about the Trinity. The Eastern Orthodox conception of the Trinity is, in theory, slightly different from the Western (Catholic/Protestant) conception–see the [Filioque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque) controversy (if you dare). Jehovah’s Witnesses are Nontrinitarian; they believe Jesus Christ to be the _Son_ of God, but not “God incarnate” or “true God from true God”. In this view, Jesus is a sort of super-archangel and mediator between God and humanity, with a special position distinct from (and higher than) all other creations, but nonetheless separate from God (Jehovah). I believe the Seventh-day Adventists are Trinitarian, the same as other Western Christian denominations, but of course they are quite insistent that worship should be on the seventh day–Saturday–not on the first day–Sunday. I think there are some other doctrinal differences as well. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/28 "2012-09-21T01:52:52Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Do the Roman, Eastern, and all the Protestant churches have identical trinities? They aren’t identical, but they are essentially the same: three aspects of the eternal creator god. Thus they are acceptable for RC baptismal purposes. That is in contrast to the LDS trinity, which is three distinct and independent entities cooperating. > [@](#): > > Do their differing theologies make them pseudo-Christian too? The issue isn’t whether they are “psuedo-Christian”. that is a term that only you have used. The issue is whether a Baptism to the LDS Holy Trinity is being attributed to the same entity known to the RC Church as “The Holy Trinity”. > [@](#): > > How about the JWs and Adventists? Don’t know much about the Adventists, but JWs don’t even \*have \*a concept of a Trinity. The JW “Son” is a distinct entity, created by God and wholly separate from him. The JW Holy Spirit is just an expression of activity, and no more distinct from the God then your left elbow is distinct form you. So they certainly don’t qualify as a RC acceptable baptism. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/29 "2012-09-21T01:52:59Z")
Oh, and as a result of their theology, Jehovah’s Witnesses are also likely to be considered non-Christian or heretical or what-have-you by Trinitarian Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/30 "2012-09-21T01:55:59Z")
I am quite willing to accept Mormons as fellow Christians. This does not mean I agree with their crazy doctrines. It does not mean I think their baptism is valid. It does not even mean I think they will go to heaven. It’s simply a recognition that they profess faith in Christ, and by virtue of that fact can be accurately described by the demographic term “Christian”. They may be hellbound heretical Christians, but they are Christians nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/31 "2012-09-21T02:00:04Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Do the Roman, Eastern, and all the Protestant churches have identical trinities? Do their differing theologies make them pseudo-Christian too? How about the JWs and Adventists? The Catholic,Orthodox, and Protestant churuches all share a pretty common belief regarding the Trinity. There are small, hair-splitting differences between specific denominations, (look up _filioque_, for example), but they all look to the Nicene Creed for the definition of the Trinity as both Three and One. The Seventh Day Adventists were not strictly Trinitarian at their founding, but they embraced more and more Trinitarian thought as they included more Christians from other denominations who brought Trinitarian beliefs with them. They do not spend a lot of effort describing the Trinity and they use language that seems odd to some other Christians, but they now share the same basic Trinitarian beliefs as the majority of Christians, and have for many years. Jehovah’s Witnesses are explicitly not Trinitarian. They believe in Jehovah as God, with nods to Jesus and the Spirit as agents, (for want of a better word, since I am not that well read on their dogma), of Jehovah. = = = As to “pseudo-Christian,” I do not choose to set those sort of labels. If a group wishes to self-identify as Christian, I am not going to leap up and denounce them. In a discussion of particular beliefs, I may note that one group or another does or does not follow the Nicene Creed or, in other contexts, specific passages of Scripture or the early Councils, but I draw no conclusion regarding their legitimacy as Christians. Not my job. There are several Christian groups in the Middle East, (despite living among Muslims for 1400 years), who broke with the mainstream Christian church at early dates who may also be more Trinitarian or less Trinitarian, but again, I do not choose to rank them as tothe quality of their Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/32 "2012-09-21T02:31:45Z")
Thanks for the replies. I hadn’t realized that the major Christian groups all accepted the Creeds. I was raised LDS, and was taught that belief in Christ as savior, and belief in the Bible (especially KJV), were what makes one a Christian. To a Mormon, all the competing Christian groups are hell-bound heretics, but they’re all Christians. Regardless, as an ex-Mormon I will always consider myself to be ex-Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/33 "2012-09-21T14:24:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’m pretty sure the Mormon church takes this position.😃 > > The Southern Baptist position is wishy-washy on whether Mormons are Christian but condemns the Book of Mormon. [Cite:](http://www.sbc.net/redirect.asp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.namb.net%2Fatf%2Fcf%2F%7BCDA250E8-8866-4236-9A0C-C646DE153446%7D%2FCL_Book_of_Mormon.pdf&key=mormons&title=010302+the+book+of+mormon&ndx=SBC%2C+IMB%2C+NAMB%2C+ANNUITY%2C+LIFEWAY%2C+WMU%2C+ERLC%2C+SEMINARIES) > > > [@](#): > > > > The Bible has withstood the attacks of skeptics for > > centuries. Christians remain confident that it is the > > reliable, inspired Word of God. Historical research, > > archaeology, and textual studies have confirmed its > > veracity. The Book of Mormon, conversely, lacks even > > meager support for its historical or theological contents. > > Christians respect Mormons’ lifestyles and affirm their > > rights to believe and propagate their faith. However, we > > cannot recognize The Book of Mormon as “another > > testament of Jesus Christ” I wouldn’t call that wishy-washy. The comment presupposes that Mormons are \*\*not \*\*Christians: “Christians respect…” I suppose we’ll have to save the issue of what historical research confirms that the Bible is the inspired Word of God for another time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/34 "2012-09-21T15:22:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > On the other hand, **Poly** , the Episcopal Church does have a current active bishop who was baptized in the LDS church prior to becoming an Anglican, and was not required to become re-baptized. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Good point. Which bishop, if you don’t mind my asking? I didn’t see your question when this thread was new, **Polycarp** , so forgive me for answering you two years later. The bishop I was referring to was the Right Reverend [Carolyn Tanner Irish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Irish), 10th Bishop of Utah (now retired). According to her brief biography on Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Having been raised and baptized in the LDS Church, there has been debate in some circles over the validity of her baptism and subsequent ordination because of differences in theology between the two churches. However, at the time of her confirmation into the Episcopal Church, her baptism was recognized as valid. I agree with you that a conditional re-baptism would have been appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/35 "2012-09-23T21:11:08Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > To a Mormon, all the competing Christian groups are hell-bound heretics, but they’re all Christians. I thought that we were Telestial-bound heretics and that the Outer Darkness/Lake of Fire was only for the truly wicked & apostates. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258/36 "2012-09-23T21:22:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I thought that we were Telestial-bound heretics and that the Outer Darkness/Lake of Fire was only for the truly wicked & apostates. The concept of Hell is a little unclear in Mormonism. The word appears a lot in LDS scripture. It can refer to “Spirit Prison” (a temporary purgatory where disembodied spirits are given one last chance to convert), “Telestial Kingdom” (the lowest level of heaven, which will be somewhat nicer than mortal life), and “Outer Darkness” (an eternal ennui populated by Satan, 1/3 of the host of heaven, and apostates like me). All references to fire and brimstone are regarded as figurative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-christian-denominations-consider-mormons-as-christians-too/539258.md?page=1)