# What comes after capitalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428 "2010-02-10T15:38:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/41 "2010-02-11T15:41:55Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > We are so technologically advanced that we are can’t go backwards to Marxism but more of a hybrid capitalism based on a corporate overthrow and erosion of our Government. The media, the banks, and the elite will/ do own the government. The problem is that they will bankrupt our country in the process. The first thing to go will be the dollar bill that says (In God We Trust). We will use a new form of currency which may be from the countries that bail us out. We need a lot of bodies for whats coming so that is why we are allowing 2 million immigrants in a year and illegals to come in. Government health care will sort out who is an asset and who goes. We will be branded like cattle and used by the elite and for the elite. Slavery takes many forms. _twirls moustache_ ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/42 "2010-02-11T16:46:10Z")
Great post **Der Trihs**. I agree with your projections. The post capitalist society will be something like what Stephenson describes in _The Diamond Age_: fabricators in every household that can create whatever you wish. As people in this future scenario are free from actually _making_ stuff, I imagine the arts - particularly those involving live performance, like plays and sports - will become more and more important. The public will want to see people engaged in contests of strength and speed, or productions of human drama. Handmade objects will also be of great value. Entertaining ourselves will be the most popular occupation, next to servicing the fabricators of course. I am uncertain about the underdeveloped (or insert whatever PC term is most appropriate here \_\_\_\_\_\_) world. I can’t see the kinds of technological revolution necessary for a post capitalist, post-scarcity economy to emerge there, at least as quickly as it would in the developed world. Would the populations in those countries be left further and further behind, as we in the West fabricate away? What would happen to the political structure in those places? Now that I think of it, what would happen to the political structure here, in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/43 "2010-02-11T16:54:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Doesn’t it? See [state capitalism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism) There’s glory for you! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/44 "2010-02-11T17:02:02Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > Great post **Der Trihs**. I agree with your projections. The post capitalist society will be something like what Stephenson describes in _The Diamond Age_: fabricators in every household that can create whatever you wish. > > As people in this future scenario are free from actually _making_ stuff, I imagine the arts - particularly those involving live performance, like plays and sports - will become more and more important. The public will want to see people engaged in contests of strength and speed, or productions of human drama. Handmade objects will also be of great value. Entertaining ourselves will be the most popular occupation, next to servicing the fabricators of course. You know, substituting technological for political progress as the change agent, that is more or less the same as the individualistic-creative utopia that Oscar Wilde foretold in [“The Soul of Man Under Socialism”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_of_man_under_socialism) (1891). His idea was, in essence, that socialism would make it possible for every person to live like an idle-rich gentleman amateur of his time. It’s a nice vision, possible or not. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/45 "2010-02-11T18:24:01Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > We’ve already been through it. > > Hyperleveraged capitalism; where the economic force driving the creation of wealth were neither the production and delivery of goods & services but options, futures, derivatives etc. > > With a burst of DotCom capitalism in the middle where wealth creation was due to the technology itself rather than it’s economic gains. > > What comes next? > Environmental capitalism, maybe? Interestingly enough, the book I’m currently reading makes a good argument that the rise and fall of oil prices caused the 2008 recession, not subprime mortgages. He says the subprime bubble was a symptom of low inflation caused by low oil prices, and that the cause of the recession was triple digit oil prices. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/46 "2010-02-11T21:14:25Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > I am uncertain about the underdeveloped (or insert whatever PC term is most appropriate here \_\_\_\_\_\_) world. I can’t see the kinds of technological revolution necessary for a post capitalist, post-scarcity economy to emerge there, at least as quickly as it would in the developed world. Would the populations in those countries be left further and further behind, as we in the West fabricate away? Technologically, I expect that they’ll actually get a leg up. A fabber that can build most anything - including more fabbers - means you don’t need the same kind of infrastructure to go high tech. Their social/political problems won’t necessary go away though, and that’s really much of their problem; having shinier toys won’t do you much good if your neighbors or your government are trying to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/47 "2010-02-11T21:32:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Their social/political problems won’t necessary go away though, and that’s really much of their problem; having shinier toys won’t do you much good if your neighbors or your government are trying to kill you. I see the opposite problem occuring: having shiner toys _does_ do you a lot of good if your neighbours or your government are trying to kill you (if they are sufficiently shiny, at least), but if your neighbours or your government are the ones with the shiny toys, you’re even more screwed than you were to start with. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/48 "2010-02-11T22:31:17Z")
The residue of capitalism is social unrest .Eventually a few, grasping all the wealth, results in a revolution. Then we can remake America into the government the founding fathers wanted. By the way ,a few countries have had the people rise up and boot out their corporate overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/49 "2010-02-11T22:37:46Z")
1. Capitalism 2. ??? 3. Profit ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/50 "2010-02-11T22:39:56Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I see the opposite problem occuring: having shiner toys _does_ do you a lot of good if your neighbours or your government are trying to kill you (if they are sufficiently shiny, at least), but if your neighbours or your government are the ones with the shiny toys, you’re even more screwed than you were to start with. Thing is when everyone has shinier toys, you just have the same situation you used to, with more firepower. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/51 "2010-02-11T22:45:58Z")
BTW, to put this all in perspective – really **long** perspective – see the [Kardashev Scale:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1_civilization) > [@](#): > > The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization’s level of technological advancement. The scale is only theoretical and in terms of an actual civilization highly speculative; however, it puts energy consumption of an entire civilization in a cosmic perspective. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet Russian astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. The scale has three designated categories called Type I, II, and III. These are based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal, and the degree of space colonization. In general terms, a Type I civilization has achieved mastery of the resources of its home planet, Type II of its solar system, and Type III of its galaxy.[1] > > \ > > Human civilization is currently somewhere below Type I, as it is able to harness only a portion of the energy that is available on Earth. The current state of human civilization has thus been named Type 0. Although intermediate values were not discussed in Kardashev’s original proposal, Carl Sagan argued that they could easily be defined by interpolating and extrapolating the values given above. In 1973, he calculated humanity’s civilization type to be 0.7, in relationship to Kardashev’s model for Types 0 and I.[4] Of course, maybe we’ll never even get to Type I civilization, **and why should we,** if we can somehow manage to achieve universal abundance and leisure without using all of Earth’s available energy? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/52 "2010-02-11T22:50:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The residue of capitalism is social unrest .Eventually a few, grasping all the wealth, results in a revolution. That’s what Marx predicted – but **as a result of fully-developed capitalism,** and he predicted the Revolution therefore would come first in the most advanced capitalist countries of his time, Germany and Britain and the U.S. So far, however, **successful** Marxist revolutions have happened only in backward, agrarian countries like Russia and China and Cuba. (East Germany was Communist only because the system was imposed by force of Soviet arms. There was a brief localized Communist revolution in Germany after WWI, but it was quickly put down.) Clearly, Marx was missing something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/53 "2010-02-11T22:51:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I see the opposite problem occuring: having shiner toys _does_ do you a lot of good if your neighbours or your government are trying to kill you (if they are sufficiently shiny, at least) . . . Or, rather, sufficiently lethal. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/54 "2010-02-11T22:56:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, maybe we’ll never even get to Type I civilization, **and why should we,** if we can somehow manage to achieve universal abundance and leisure without using all of Earth’s available energy? Because Earth is small, cramped, crowded, and fragile. And an interstellar civilization that achieved no more than the equivalent of Type 1 would be impoverished. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/55 "2010-02-11T23:07:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s what Marx predicted – but **as a result of fully-developed capitalism,** and he predicted the Revolution therefore would come first in the most advanced capitalist countries of his time, Germany and Britain and the U.S. So far, however, **successful** Marxist revolutions have happened only in backward, agrarian countries like Russia and China and Cuba. (East Germany was Communist only because the system was imposed by force of Soviet arms. There was a brief localized Communist revolution in Germany after WWI, but it was quickly put down.) Clearly, Marx was missing something. Time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/56 "2010-02-11T23:32:19Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Time. I’d be willing to entertain the possibility that Marx was merely premature in expecting Revolution in his lifetime, and the events he predicted are simply things that have not come to pass **yet** – except that, in the decades since Marx’ death, so many things have changed about technology and industrial processes as to render his whole set of premises suspect. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/57 "2010-02-11T23:40:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because Earth is small, cramped, crowded, and fragile. And an interstellar civilization that achieved no more than the equivalent of Type 1 would be impoverished. Well, some have speculated that it is technically possible (whether it is sociopolitically possible is another question entirely) for Earth to support a population of up to 9 billion, and at the standard of living now enjoyed by the middle classes of the industrialized nations, and environmentally sustainably. See [this article,](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2004/worldly_wealth) discussed in [this old GD thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264849&highlight=lind+billion) Of course, I would agree with you this far: The only way to ensure the long-term survival of the human race – that is, to ensure that we can even **outlive Earth’s biosphere,** regardless of natural extinction-level events such as asteroid collisions or the Sun going nova – is for us to establish a permanent self-sustaining presence in outer space; and an “interstellar civilization” of Type I or higher is worth having for that reason alone. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/58 "2010-02-12T00:32:37Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Interestingly enough, the book I’m currently reading makes a good argument that the rise and fall of oil prices caused the 2008 recession, not subprime mortgages. He says the subprime bubble was a symptom of low inflation caused by low oil prices, and that the cause of the recession was triple digit oil prices. It wasn’t just a subprime bubble, it was a general real estate/commercial real estate bubble, and it grew because of low rates but mainly because lending standards/securities ratings standards/various other forms of regulation were scrapped. Want to prevent a housing bubble? Mandate 20% down only mortgages, scrap Option ARM, no document mortgages, subprime etc. The bubble was fed by a huge wave of capital, a lot of it coming from Asia, some from the Arabian Gulf. If we’d had high oil prices in the 1990s/early 2000s then that huge wave of capital would have been less Asian/more Arabian, but it’d still have been exactly the same amount looking to be invested. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/59 "2010-02-12T03:09:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Everyone always thinks of “terminator” and “fembot” style humanoid servants when they think of “robots”. Practical robots like the ones we have been using for 30 years look nothing like humans. You don’t need a robot to sit in the driver’s seat and take up the space of another human. The car IS the robot. We currently have automated container terminals that can unload entire ships and put the contents on trains and trucks with minimal human interaction. A bipedal robot could replace much of human labor though. Current robotics are good at replacing human labor on assembly lines, but to my knowledge they cannot perform many service sector jobs. A bipedal robot would improve productivity since they could perform a wide range of service and manufacturing labor. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428/60 "2010-02-12T03:43:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’d be willing to entertain the possibility that Marx was merely premature in expecting Revolution in his lifetime, and the events he predicted are simply things that have not come to pass **yet** – except that, in the decades since Marx’ death, so many things have changed about technology and industrial processes as to render his whole set of premises suspect. Just in fiber optics alone we have gone from copper twisted pair to a single fiber optic to cables carrying 48 fibers. Probably more since I left. We literally could not keep test equipment more then a year before we had to upgrade everything. It was baffling to me to watch technology change by the day that used to be good for a decade or more. I may have noticed it more because I was in the middle of it. I watched analog go to digital. Still without natural resources to power all this technology we can only go so far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-comes-after-capitalism/528428.md?page=4)