# What conditions allow socialism to be effective? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681 "2011-12-18T22:30:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/41 "2011-12-19T22:53:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And they managed to build this centralized\* socialist multinational empire with purely stone-age technology, no system of writing (only the _quipu_ system of knotted cords, good for accounting but not for poetry), no wheeled vehicles, and no draft animal larger than a llama. And without riding mounts of any kind (don’t try to ride a llama). Across a vast, high, rugged mountain range, with countless towns linked only by rope bridges. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/42 "2011-12-19T23:10:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is one (often overlooked) example of a successful socialist society: The Inca Empire, where state officials and accountants collected and distributed all produce (and even arranged marriages, when they visited the villages and found any adult unmarried, don’t gimme no alternative-lifestyles shit). It worked in the sense that nobody in the Empire went hungry or naked, and the Emperor lived in luxury not much greater than the peasant. And they managed to build this centralized\* socialist multinational empire with purely stone-age technology, no system of writing (only the _quipu_ system of knotted cords, good for accounting but not for poetry), no wheeled vehicles, and no draft animal larger than a llama. Good to know that all that is needed to count something a “success” is sustainability. Personally, I like things like: Meritocracy Sexual equality Modern technology (modern medicine, the internet, etc.) including the end of the 30% infant mortality rate Representative government Human rights standards General freedom It isn’t random happenstance that these didn’t come into being until socialist/tribal economies came to an end. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/43 "2011-12-19T23:39:20Z")
That certainly clarifies things! We can now state definitively that such systems that prevail in, say, Sweden are not “socialistic” because they still exist. ---
**Author:** ![Comicenbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Comicenbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Comicenbe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/44 "2011-12-19T23:53:43Z")
I want to visit Sweden and see how different it is. I bet I’ll be happily surprised with the change. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/45 "2011-12-20T00:04:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Good to know that all that is needed to count something a “success” is sustainability. By **stone age standards,** I think it certainly counts as a success. You need to compare it to other neolithic societies. The idea of any “progress” in human affairs is a very modern (and partly Marxist) one. Even China, a high civilization, was for most of its history uninterested in “progress”; everybody knew what the perfect society looked like: China. At any time when it is blessed with a strong dynasty and a good emperor. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/46 "2011-12-20T02:25:38Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;14581494’] **That said, trust in your government and your society is the necessary condition.** Best answer? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What do you mean by “socialism”. Real socialism is the system used in the USSR. I beg to differ in your statement that day-to-day life was pretty much the same for people in the USSR and and people in any Western Mixed Capitalist country. That was so-called “state socialism” or “Marxist-Leninist-Stalinism.” By contrast, “socialism” is a broadly used and nearly undefined term. > [@xtisme](#): > > What’s required to make ‘socialism’ (a la what Europe and even the US has to a lesser degree) function? Ironically you need a strong and vibrant capitalist economy and base to make those ‘socialist’ type dreams a reality, painful as that must be to some posters on this board. Since capitalism without a little socialism tends to topple into ruin, that implies that a good system has aspects of both. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Good to know that all that is needed to count something a “success” is sustainability. > > Personally, I like things like: > > Meritocracy > Sexual equality > Modern technology (modern medicine, the internet, etc.) including the end of the 30% infant mortality rate > Representative government > Human rights standards > General freedom > > It isn’t random happenstance that these didn’t come into being until socialist/tribal economies came to an end. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy. About as silly as the “corporations make everything” line one often hears. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/47 "2011-12-20T02:44:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is one (often overlooked) example of a successful socialist society: The Inca Empire, where state officials and accountants collected and distributed all produce (and even arranged marriages, when they visited the villages and found any adult unmarried, don’t gimme no alternative-lifestyles shit). It worked in the sense that nobody in the Empire went hungry or naked, and the Emperor lived in luxury not much greater than the peasant. And they managed to build this centralized\* socialist multinational empire with purely stone-age technology, no system of writing (only the _quipu_ system of knotted cords, good for accounting but not for poetry), no wheeled vehicles, and no draft animal larger than a llama. > > Whether such a system could work in any post-neolithic society is another question. > > - Actually it was a federation of four provinces – the “Four Quarters” north, south, east and west of Cuzco – but a highly centralized system withal. Do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/48 "2011-12-20T02:49:52Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] Since capitalism without a little socialism tends to topple into ruin, that implies that a good system has aspects of both. [/QUOTE] Why yes…that’s exactly what it implies. Just as the inverse is true…socialism without capitalism fails miserably and falls to ruin. I happen to believe that we have a decent mix in the US (not, IMHO an OPTIMAL mix, but a decent mix that works for the majority)…and in Europe for that matter, though the sliding scale goes a bit more socialist than I, personally am comfortable with. But then, their system doesn’t have to work for me…it simply has to work well for the folks who live there. That’s the beauty of such systems…they simply have to work well enough for the majority of their citizens for them to be content with the system they have. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/49 "2011-12-20T02:49:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? [_Ancient Ruins and Archaeology_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ruins_and_Archaeology) (aka _Citadels of Mystery)_ by L. Sprague de Camp. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/50 "2011-12-20T03:26:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [_Ancient Ruins and Archaeology_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ruins_and_Archaeology) (aka _Citadels of Mystery)_ by L. Sprague de Camp. **BG’s** correct, but it’s important to understand, too, that the Inca were astoundingly brutal, had no enemies or rivals whatsoever beyond a few local tribes, and fell apart the moment they had contact with others. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/51 "2011-12-20T03:35:57Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > **BG’s** correct, but it’s important to understand, too, that the Inca were astoundingly brutal, had no enemies or rivals whatsoever beyond a few local tribes, and fell apart the moment they had contact with others. I dunno about “astoundingly brutal,” just better at war than their neighbors, that’s how empires happen. The Inca gods, at any rate, had little hunger for human sacrifice. And it took **Old World** “others” to bring them down, just as they brought down every native state and culture. The Inca **flute bands** could have laughed at a southward-expanding Aztec Empire. [Here’s](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Pre-ColumbianCivilizations) TVTropes Useful Notes, FWIW: > [@](#): > > The Incas were particularly unlike the Mayincatec image. For one, they lived nowhere near the Mayas and Aztecs, but in South America, specifically the Andes. The Incas called their empire Tawantinsuyu, or The Four States, and it was indeed effectively four distinct states, what would today likely be called a federation. Rather than military conquest, the Incas believed in diplomatic acquisition, and they brought many tribes under their rule. > > Entrance to the nobility was based on merit as determined by some sort of Inca SAT-equivalent. They were very bureaucracy- and business-oriented, as they pretty much had to be to rule an empire that large. Even their marriages were strictly a business deal. The Incas believed in equality, that All Men Must Work In Order To Live, and every citizen — even nobility — paid tribute in the form of some manual labor as a public service. > > They built a highway system and remarkably stable stone structures, given the unstable geology of the region — possibly due to their propensity to build things out of ginormous stone blocks carved to exacting specifications. Much of the imperial capital of Cuzco is still standing and in use today, along with thousands of terraces and granaries. They used these to take advantage of the region’s unique climate that allowed them to grow different crops at different elevations throughout the Andes, and export them only a short distance to market, so that Imperial runners could bring fresh fish to Cuzco every day, along with mail, despite the lack of a wheel (which isn’t as odd as you might think; wheels aren’t that helpful when most of your country is either uphill or downhill) or written language. > > Moreso than any other culture in the region, the Inca chose to survive and adapt to Spanish conquest, with the last Inca Emperor instructing his citizens to convert to Christianity and worship Inca traditions on the side, which some Quechua people continue to do today. Their language and much of their agrarian lifestyle has also survived. They were aided in this by the mountainous nature of the region which left the Spaniards dependent on Inca infrastructure and foodstuffs, and protected the Inca from wholesale slaughter. In particular, Incan roads inhibited Spanish spread. European mountain roads consist of multiple switchbacks in order to accommodate the proclivities of the Eurasian horse. In contrast, Incan roads were built with the llama and alpaca in mind, and consist of stairsteps up the sides of mountains. Eurasian horses **hated** them. > The Inca system of manual labor as a public service, paid for in coca leaf, also survives in Peru. (Chewing the leaves helpfully kept workers energized, and is considerably tolerated, leading to no small amount of Values Dissonance when a revolt by coca growers led to the election of Bolivia’s first Indian president.) It helps that Inca beliefs were a little easier to reconcile with European values than, say, the Aztecs’. **That’s** what socialism needs to work! Coca leaves! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/52 "2011-12-20T04:13:27Z")
The moral of the story, though, is if you live in Mesopotamia don’t put beer on your tab…especially in winter! This aphorism rivals ‘never get into a land war in Asia’, and is only slightly less weighty as ‘never gamble with a Sicilian when death is on the line!’ -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/53 "2011-12-20T04:15:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The moral of the story, though, is if you live in Mesopotamia don’t put beer on your tab…especially in winter! This aphorism rivals ‘never get into a land war in Asia’, and is only slightly less weighty as ‘never gamble with a Sicilian when death is on the line!’ > > -XT No one ever seems to remark on the **third** classic blunder: “Never enter into a contest your enemy designed and prepared.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/54 "2011-12-20T04:23:21Z")
It’s not as catchy…plus it doesn’t have a lot to do with beer. Also, it’s never been in a mass market movie as far as I know. Get someone like Bruce Willis or Chuck Norris (_snort_) to say it as a tag line in a movie and that will all change… -XT ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/55 "2011-12-20T04:28:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not like I invented this definition. It’s a pretty standard one. What’s your definition of socialism? From whence did you get your allegedly standard definition of socialism? It is not so in the reference materials I’m looking at. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/56 "2011-12-20T05:17:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy. About as silly as the “corporations make everything” line one often hears. Other than that we’ve seen that nations stagnate technologically and in terms of civil rights when they turn to Socialism (Cuba, the USSR, etc.) and that there’s clear reasons why the modern world went this direction. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/57 "2011-12-20T06:30:53Z")
Gosh, when you put it like that, it all seems so simple! for a fleeting moment. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/58 "2011-12-20T07:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sage Rat** : Now to drop the word “Socialism” and ask, “Why do the Scandinavian countries seem to be able to go on successfully with 80% tax rates, unemployment plans that let you sit around playing video games till the day you die just because you want to, and so on?” I saw your additional posts explaining part of the 80 percent tax. It still doesn’t add up. I lived in Denmark with a Danish family away from the city for a short time long ago. At that time the tax charged on anything you bought was indeed 15%. Tennessee is not far behind. I think we squeak through at under ten percent, but think of all of the other items that are taxed in the USA! Further, the family that I lived with said no one in Denmark had to buy insurance ever. When you were sick, you saw the doctor, you had surgery if you needed it, and so on. When you had your baby, you didn’t have to worry about paying hospital expenses. There were none. When you grew old, you didn’t have to pay for nursing care. There were NO insurance companies involved. You got the medicines you needed whether they cost seven thousand dollars a shot or not. No cost. They did not pay 80% though. It was at 40% when I was there. The rate may change some, but it is not what you claimed. The Danes, and I think maybe other Scandanavians, are known for a strong work ethic. It is certainly not tied to the church anymore as most Scandanavians aren’t tied to the church. For two or three years recently, the Danes were always at the top of the “happiest country in the world” list. I just haven’t seen the list lately. > [@](#): > > Meritocracy > Sexual equality > Modern technology (modern medicine, the internet, etc.) including the end of the 30% infant mortality rate > Representative government > Human rights standards > General freedom The family that I lived with was affluent by American standards. Their family- owned business was a block long and four stories high. It was a “shop” not a warehouse. It included an apartment and a garden in the center. Which one of those do you think is not found in Denmark? Surely, there are people living in one room apartments. I did right here in the USA when I was in my twenties. Haven’t you ever heard of an efficiency apartment? There are some near me. What I didn’t see in Denmark were people sleeping on the street. There are some of these near me too. We also have a friend who lives in the back of a truck. > [@](#): > > **smiling bandit** : Non-Christian Communes completely crashed and burned. Nyah. [http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/](http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/) National Geographic magazine has found them interesting enough to do pages on them – maybe more than once. The Farm is forty years old now. There are some Dopers, including **Rune** , who know much more about the situation in Denmark now. I know that it has changed, but not in the horrible way that some of you have described. The USA has made use of socialism for centuries. Fire departments, police departments, libraries, schools, public works. Yes, that is socialism. I’m sorry for those of you who truly don’t recognize the difference in socialism and communism. (Although I have had friends who lived happily as members of both parties.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/59 "2011-12-20T08:26:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Didn’t they? At least, aren’t they considered awfully anachronistic in Israel today? Not really. They certainly aren’t as important as they used to be, and they’ve evolved quite a bit in the past few decades (communal child raising, for instance, is dead), but they still have a place in Israeli society. Some three quarters of Israel’s agricultural output is produced through various communal models; “agribusiness” does not exist here past the local level. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681/60 "2011-12-20T10:26:45Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I didn’t say they exist, I said it’s a possibility. I’ve seen comments on either side, saying the opposite of one another. I haven’t personally read enough to comment any more particularly than stating it as one potential of many - exactly as I did. > > And while you say that 80% isn’t a realistic number, [according to the Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world), Sweden has up to a 59.05% tax on income, a separate 31.42% on payroll (I’m not sure what the difference is), and then something like a 15% average on purchases (i.e. on the remaining). That can easily get one into the 80% territory. “Up to”. Reality falls far short of that. The basic rate, which can go up to about 33 or 34% (mine is around 29% - it is based on where you live), is on your first 384 600 SEK (2010). In 2010 the average wage was 365 930 SEK, so the average earner wasn’t even reaching the first bracket, which adds 20%. There’s then another bracket that adds a further 5% that kicks in above 545 200 SEK. So if you choose to live in an area with a high tax rate AND earn 1.5 times the national average you can slip into a bracket that taxes at around 59% for all income in that bracket (note: not the income lower than that bracket). Which is a pretty long way away from having an effective tax rate that gets you anywhere close to, well, anything you wrote about. [https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/sve/eng/i07.asp&c=sve&l=eng&m=02](https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/sve/eng/i07.asp&c=sve&l=eng&m=02) [http://www.oecd.org/document/37/0,3746,en\_33873108\_33873822\_47446053\_1\_1\_1\_1,00.html](http://www.oecd.org/document/37/0,3746,en_33873108_33873822_47446053_1_1_1_1,00.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conditions-allow-socialism-to-be-effective/606681.md?page=4)