# What "Conservative Values" aren't based on bigotry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176 "2019-07-16T16:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/241 "2019-07-18T18:30:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps you meant to respond to the other poster. I have been trying to explain to him that there are more ways to interpret “treating people equally”, but he insists on digressing into whether or not conservatives treat people equally in his conception of the phrase. And it’s been repeatedly explained to you that what you are considering “treating people equally” is anything but. Not sure how much simpler we can make it. If you had an example that actually “treated people equally” then you’d have a point. But you don’t, so you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/242 "2019-07-18T18:31:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Very, very, VERY strong emphasis on the word “supposedly”. As I’m sure, e.g. every LGBT Doper left will be prompt to explain to you at length, possibly while disembowelling you. Don’t know what you are alluding to, but I probably don’t care. Conservatives have a few errors that need correcting. I had in mind their support of special treatment of police and other government workers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/243 "2019-07-18T18:32:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Very, very, VERY strong emphasis on the word “supposedly”. As I’m sure, e.g. every LGBT Doper left will be prompt to explain to you at length, possibly while disembowelling you. During the US debate, we actually did see actual Dopers claim that gays have the same right as straights to marry people of the opposite sex, so there was no problem to fix. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Don’t know what you are alluding to, but I probably don’t care. And that speaks loudly, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/244 "2019-07-18T18:33:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And it’s been repeatedly explained to you that what you are considering “treating people equally” is anything but. Not sure how much simpler we can make it. > > If you had an example that actually “treated people equally” then you’d have a point. But you don’t, so you don’t. I don’t have an example of conservatives treating people equally in the liberal conception of the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/245 "2019-07-18T18:35:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t have an example of conservatives treating people equally in the liberal conception of the phrase. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/246 "2019-07-18T18:35:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > During the US debate, we actually did see actual Dopers claim that gays have the same right as straights to marry people of the opposite sex, so there was no problem to fix. Another example of treating people equally in the conservative sense of the term. > [@](#): > > And that speaks loudly, doesn’t it? Why should I care about special interest groups who want to disembowel me? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/247 "2019-07-18T18:37:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Exactly. I had no evidence of something I didn’t claim. For some reason I think this is not hitting home for you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/248 "2019-07-18T18:37:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Don’t know what you are alluding to Yeah, dude, we know. > [@](#): > > but I probably don’t care. Yeah, dude, we _know_. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/249 "2019-07-18T18:40:14Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Another example of treating people equally in the conservative sense of the term. Further illustrating the indefensibility of the term as you use it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/250 "2019-07-18T18:53:13Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Why should I care about special interest groups who want to disembowel me? Just to clarify (I know, I know, you’re being disingenuously obtuse, and what witty fun it is !) : it was a joke, and they don’t generally speaking. But they \*might \*just get the impulsive urge to when you pretend to have utterly missed the whole gay Thing over the past, oh, twenty, thirty years, thereabouts ? Wait, no, the seventies still keep receding, the judgemental agist assholes. Make that fitty. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/251 "2019-07-18T18:55:04Z")
Seems that Will may have forgotten the three social structures in which conservatives agree “communism/socialism” is better… families, churches, charity… but points have to be made in this discussion, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/252 "2019-07-18T19:00:14Z")
Once we get past the vitriol and name-calling, it seems like one of the fundamental differences is that conservatives value things like personal freedom and property rights - i.e. the right to own and dispose of your own possessions how you see fit, as more important than making things fair or equitable. So when we start talking about progressive vs. flat taxes, one side sees “unfair” as taxation causing a higher burden on one group than another, while the other views “unfair” as one group getting more of their stuff taken than another. Both are right from their particular perspectives. And both viewpoints are compounded by emotional aspects - “$100 of tax to a poor person is a bigger deal to them than $3000 to an upper middle class family! That’s not fair!” versus “I’m successful- why is the government taking more of my income than that dumbshit I went to high school with who did nothing but smoke weed and skip class? I’m being penalized for doing the right thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/253 "2019-07-18T19:03:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I would say that you strongly implied it, yes. You are mistaken in that assessment. > [@](#): > > Yes, your initial response to me, where you implied that I’m a racist for noting that the Republican party is awash in racism and bigotry, made it appear very strongly that you think there isn’t a problem with racism in your party. Also, the fact that you’re a member of that party. That would not be racism, that would be bigotry. This quoted section is in fact a bigoted statement as well. I disagree with your assessment that the Republican Party is “awash in racism and bigotry.” It’s nothing more than a hyperbolous statement of political hackitude. The statement tells me about you and your attitudes. It tells me nothing about Republicans. You are not free to assume I am Republican. I, in fact voted a Democrat in the last two presidential elections. I am aware that there are racists on the right. It is very clear that the left is far more racist. > [@](#): > > Do you think I showed more or less bad faith than the post where you implied that I was a racist for noting the overwhelming prejudice of the Republican party More. I didn’t accuse or imply that you were being racist. That would make no sense. What I did accuse you of by implication was bigotry. The quoted section I used paints with a broad enough brush, and is egregious enough that such an accusation is warranted. I stand behind it. > [@](#): > > I already did. **Sam Stone** asserted that Democrats are playing identity politics, and that that’s a bad thing, with a heavy implication that we’re the only ones doing it. I pointed out that, pretty much across the board, every time the Democrats are playing “identity politics,” its with a group that the Republicans have explicitly singled out and attacked as a matter of political policy. You implied that I was racist myself for making that observation. Which implies that you think there’s a different reason, other than the apalling bigotry of the Republican party, for the vast disparity in minority support for the two parties. I think asking what you think is the reason for that disparity is an entirely worthy question. There’s that broad brush again. Clinton signed DOMA, Obama came out against gay marriage during his first term. You seem to want to assert as a given fact that issues of racism and bigotry should automatically be attributed to the right when the evidence is clearly to the contrary. The more reasonable answer is that societal attitudes change and evolve. > [@](#): > > I mean, do you genuinely think that the Republican attacks on gay right through the '90s and early 2000’s had nothing to do with there being very, very few gay people who identify as Republicans? You are making broad mid characterizations that are not supported by the facts. > [@](#): > > Do you think passing constitutional bans against gay marriage in states where it was already illegal was not “identity politics?” I think that’s an act of imagination on your part. No such thing happened. > [@](#): > > Do you think Trump’s not playing identity politics when he gets one of his rallies chanting, “Send her home,” about a Muslim congresswoman? I do not. The fact that she is Muslim is irrelevant. Her being a rabid anti-American and anti-Semite who has accused him of being a white Nationalist running concentration camps, is probably the relevant reason behind his ire. > [@](#): > > Because when you call me racist for pointing that stuff out, it pretty strongly implies that you don’t think any of those things are true Jesus Christ, again with this. Bigotry, not racism. How can I could even accuse you of being racist against conservatives? It’s a political philosophy not a skin color. > [@](#): > > - that the lack of support for Republicans by minority groups doesn’t have anything to do with how Republicans have historically (and contemporaneously) treated those groups. If you don’t think there’s a link, then how do you explain the disparity of support? If you do think there’s a link, why did you get on my tits when I posted about it earlier? The link is really not about Republicans. Republicans tend to be insensitive towards race and racial issues, because they believe that individual identity is sovereign. Liberals used to believe this, too. With the ascendency of the left, that has changed. The Left believes your group identity is more important than your individual identity. That change is what is referred to when one talks about “identity politics.” Your previous examples directed at the right don’t represent “identity politics,” they are examples of racial pandering. The two terms are not interchangeable. So, why are more minorities Democrat. Because the Democrats court them. They do so in ways that are worthy and admirable, and they do so in ways that are odious and despicable, and everything in between. * * * What gets me. What I truly can’t believe is that somebody like you, a Moderator on this board, who has supposedly demonstrated some kind of faculty for critical thinking actually believes any of this bullshit you are arguing. There are 300 million people in this country and two political parties. The fact that you paint with so broad a brush on half of them is the very definition of… Bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/254 "2019-07-18T19:11:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > conservatives value things like personal freedom and property rights In your opinion, does “personal freedom” include the right to marry who you want? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/255 "2019-07-18T19:14:49Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I am aware that there are racists on the right. It is very clear that the left is far more racist. As an American minority, I will have to say that this is a very ignorant statement. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/256 "2019-07-18T19:18:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > First, define “governmental assistance”. > > Does that include assistance to businesses, which benefits their owners? > > For the sixth or maybe the six hundredth time, the liberal principle is that doing the same thing to different people in different circumstances very often isn’t equal treatment. > > Let me try putting it this way: the liberal principle is that you’re not treating people equally by letting people start the footrace from six different positions, and then claiming that the reason the people who start nearest to the finish line almost always win the races isn’t due to inequality because everybody got the same chance to run fast. We can use that as part of governmental assistance if you wish to. Do the businesses ever NOT get governmental assistance and better themselves financially? What I’m after is governmental assistance that is ‘temporary’ is perfectly acceptable in my eyes. ALL of it. The permanence of it is unacceptable. The liberal principle might as well be talking about equal as a whole new word then. Fair is a subjective judgement and it is also why you get so much pushback. Equal is easy to define, fair, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/257 "2019-07-18T19:18:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Both are right from their particular perspectives. One of which focuses entirely on the self, and the other from recognizing that there are other people in the world. Only one of those perspectives is valid. > [@bump](#): > > And both viewpoints are compounded by emotional aspects - “$100 of tax to a poor person is a bigger deal to them than $3000 to an upper middle class family!..” It isn’t emotionalism, but factuality. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/258 "2019-07-18T19:27:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I am aware that there are racists on the right. It is very clear that the left is far more racist. Hear, hear ! And that’s why Congress looks like [this]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/I) am aware that there are racists on the right. It is very clear that the left is far more racist.). I mean, seriously, **Scylla**. You’re not an absolute idiot. You’re one of Them obviously, but you still penned that blimp story, and you’ve waterboarded yourself, and you’ve written that one thing about taming horses which I \*still \*pull up from time to time because it’s so fucking good. I \*know \*there’s some feelz in you. So how do you square axiomatic, absurd statements like “the Left are the \*real \*racists !” with something as simply factual as that graphic, or Trump getting applauded, cheered on with chants of “send them home” ? Where’s the disconnect, where’s the crack in your prism ? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/259 "2019-07-18T19:29:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One of which focuses entirely on the self, and the other from recognizing that there are other people in the world. Only one of those perspectives is valid. > > It isn’t emotionalism, but factuality. Hahaha, seriously? What is factual about defining fair (non-equal) rate in taxes that I can’t factually rebut? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/260 "2019-07-18T19:32:06Z")
Okay, rebut the claim that low-income people are affected more by a flat tax rate than are high-income people. Take all the time you need. Spoiler: It’s a fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176.md?page=14)