# What "Conservative Values" aren't based on bigotry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176 "2019-07-16T16:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/321 "2019-07-19T14:28:24Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Is the conservative tendency to place people in groups and then place valuations on worthiness of those groups of _humans_, ala Kearsen’s post above… is that “bigoted”, even if the valuations are made on non-racial grounds? > > \ JohnT, Life isn’t fair in their selection of worthy vs unworthy individuals. The problem is still one of opportunity vs outcome. No dollar amount needs to be assigned to worthiness, however when you start handing out money, the assignment starts. You cannot guarantee, ever, that outcomes are going to equate when opportunities are equal. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/322 "2019-07-19T14:55:21Z")
[quote=“Velocity, post:12, topic:837176”] [li] **Free speech** (generally defended more by conservatives than liberals these days)[/li][/QUOTE] Practically every single example of a “free speech” claim _made specifically by conservatives_ and not supported by liberals is in a fact a demand to be exempt from the well-established rule that guests and customers are bound to respect rules set by the property-owning host (e.g. the butthurt whines about so-called “social media censorship”). This is actually another case of self-styled “conservatives” circular-filing actual conservative principles. [QUOTE] [li] **Freedom of religion** is often cited as an excuse for homophobia or whatnot[/li][/QUOTE] Taking the examples of “religious freedom” claims _specific to conservatives_ (see above), they turn out to be a special case of the (actual conservative) belief that businesses should have the right to refuse service on any basis the owner chooses. The only reason to invoke “religious freedom” is as a smoke screen to avoid standing behind the position that businesses should be free to exclude blacks, Jews, etc as well as gays. [QUOTE] [li]Whether **low taxation** is good economic policy or not is its own debate, but it can be fairly said to have nothing to do with bigotry.[/li][/QUOTE] :dubious: > [@Lee Atwater](#): > > You start out in 1954 by saying, “N **r, n** r, n **r." By 1968 you can’t say "n** r” – that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me – because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N\*\*\*\*r, n\*\*\*\*\*r.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/323 "2019-07-19T14:57:05Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Is the conservative tendency to place people in groups and then place valuations on worthiness of those groups of _humans_, ala Kearsen’s post above… is that “bigoted”, even if the valuations are made on non-racial grounds? You mean like, grouping conservatives together, treating them as a monolithic group, and refusing to acknowledge that Trump support could vary widely among the group or not exist at all? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/324 "2019-07-19T15:11:21Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > That’s too simplistic an not a very useful definition. A tax has to “hurt” equally. Hurt meaning discomfort, not literal dollar values. This is the liberal conception of equal I have been contrasting with the conservative conception. The conservative views this conception as useful, whether it is too simplistic is irrelevant. There are different ways of conceiving equal treatment. That is why when someone says they favor equal treatment, they should follow with how they conceive it. Otherwise, we don’t know what they really mean. Thank you for your response, though. It clearly and succinctly demonstrates the progressive religious impulse to punish. The ideology grew out of 19th century fanatical religious movements. > [@BwanaBob](#): > > You (or Haidt) are hung up on literal dollar values. That’s not the point. But just keep talking about how your amplifier goes to 11. It is the point from a conservative perspective. Taxing equal dollar amounts or equal percentages is viewed as more just than taxing based on some arbitrary concept like fairness or “hurt”. They perhaps recognize that pain is a most subjective human experience and to attempt to base a tax system around equating pain across the populace would be an example of hubris. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/325 "2019-07-19T15:13:16Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You mean like, grouping conservatives together, treating them as a monolithic group, and refusing to acknowledge that Trump support could vary widely among the group or not exist at all? If you voted for Trump either enthusiastically or reluctantly, for multiple issues or only one, then you’re a Trump voter and responsibility for your action is on you. How is that hard to accept? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/326 "2019-07-19T15:15:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Sure it is. It’s providing everyone an equal look at the game regardless of age, sex, colour or creed. Huzzah ! Or, as \*\*thorny locust \*\*told you, equality of impact and equality of requirements are merely two aspects of “equality” or “fairness”. One is not more “equal” than the other ; much less the only \*real \*equal. That is the opposite of treating people equally. It is the most direct example imaginable of treating people differently to achieve the desired outcome. And even by your butchered definition, there are no equal outcomes. The poor person is not equal financially to Bill Gates, or even to Joe Sixpack making $40k/yr even after the wholly disparate tax treatment you give to each. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/327 "2019-07-19T15:17:02Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Life isn’t fair in their selection of worthy vs unworthy individuals. Is it “life” doing the selection, or _you_? > [@](#): > > The problem is still one of opportunity vs outcome. No, and no one is arguing for equal outcomes. That’s a strawman, to excuse refusing to fix or even acknowledge unequal opportunities. > [@](#): > > No dollar amount needs to be assigned to worthiness, however when you start handing out money, the assignment starts. Didn’t you just claim it was “life” doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/328 "2019-07-19T15:24:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Not an apology. She never walked back her words and has continued saying similar things since. BDS is an openly anti-Semitic group, as Nancy Pelosi herself pointed out two weeks ago. You keep saying that BDS is anti-semitic, but I’m not personally seeing it myself. It looks like a boycott aimed at the Israeli government, and not Jewish people in general. I did some googling and found some unsourced quotes. Do you have evidence that BDS is bigoted against Jewish people as opposed to be an advocacy organization aimed at changing Israeli policy? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/329 "2019-07-19T15:24:55Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Practically every single example of a “free speech” claim _made specifically by conservatives_ and not supported by liberals is in a fact a demand to be exempt from the well-established rule that guests and customers are bound to respect rules set by the property-owning host … Not in the case of “de-platforming”, where liberals make threats of violence, disrupt speakers on campuses with whom they disagree, etc. That certainly violates the rule that guests and customers are bound to respect the rules set by the host, and it’s not coming from conservatives it’s coming from progressives under the well-known liberal principle of “free speech for me but not for thee”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/330 "2019-07-19T15:30:28Z")
Conservatives often falter and give up too much ground to the liberal by claiming they favor equal opportunity. As if equal opportunity is any more plausible than equal outcome. They should be clear that they mean equal opportunity to be equal treatment by government. For example, they don’t believe, or shouldn’t believe, that everyone should have equal educational opportunity. Is a conservative going to intervene if a family sends their child to a superior private school? I would hope not. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/331 "2019-07-19T15:33:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is it “life” doing the selection, or _you_? > > No, and no one is arguing for equal outcomes. That’s a strawman, to excuse refusing to fix or even acknowledge unequal opportunities. > > Didn’t you just claim it was “life” doing that? Elvis, you should read along the rest of the thread and see for yourself that people aren’t wanting equal outcomes (Hint: They are) And as far as picking, no it isn’t me that is picking. Nor would it be me picking if we ever got to a universal healthcare, what gets covered and for whom. The choices have to be made since we live with finite resources, how and who and why are all reasonable questions to ask about those dollars you (general you) seemingly want to just give to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/332 "2019-07-19T15:34:46Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That is the opposite of treating people equally. It is the most direct example imaginable of treating people differently to achieve the desired outcome. > > And even by your butchered definition, there are no equal outcomes. Which is baffling, considering I already said that wasn’t the point. Although maybe that’s why it’s not the result, it could be, I’unno. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/333 "2019-07-19T15:58:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It is the point from a conservative perspective. Taxing equal dollar amounts or equal percentages is viewed as more just than taxing based on some arbitrary concept like fairness or “hurt”. They perhaps recognize that pain is a most subjective human experience and to attempt to base a tax system around equating pain across the populace would be an example of hubris. How is it fair for some people to pay (proportionally) almost nothing, while others pay a significant amount which has a real impact on their quality of life? Tax a billionaire 20% and he’s still got more money than he could spend in a thousand lifetimes. He isn’t going to feel that at all. Tax someone on 30k he same percentage and that’ll have a big knock-on effect in every area of their life. Treating a billionaire and a warehouse worker on 30k the same even though they’re massively, _massively_ different isn’t equal. It’s a child’s understanding of equality. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/334 "2019-07-19T16:03:13Z")
This is a fast moving thread so I’m going to ask about this again just in case anyone missed it. Is spreading a conspiracy theory based on multiple distortions of the truth that accuses a wealthy Jewish person of using his power and influence to manipulate the media anti-semitic? e.g. > [@Is Soros actually actively trying to change U.S. policy? Or what is the basis of the hatred?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-soros-actually-actively-trying-to-change-u-s-policy-or-what-is-the-basis-of-the-hatred/823682/44): > > I find this pretty odious: > > [https://www.dailywire.com/news/37703/media-tout-jewish-leaders-pittsburgh-telling-trump-ben-shapiro](https://www.dailywire.com/news/37703/media-tout-jewish-leaders-pittsburgh-telling-trump-ben-shapiro) > > One of Soros’ organizations basically impersonated the Pittsburgh Jewish community to blame Trump for for the shooting, and suggest he wasn’t welcome in Pittsburgh. The narrative got picked up by several news sources. > > But they don’t speak for anybody and in fact the head of the Synagogue that got shot up said he would welcome Trump. > > So, this kind of shit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/335 "2019-07-19T16:10:07Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > This is a fast moving thread so I’m going to ask about this again just in case anyone missed it. > > Is spreading a conspiracy theory based on multiple distortions of the truth that accuses a wealthy Jewish person of using his power and influence to manipulate the media anti-semitic? > > e.g. It’s certainly aiding and abetting anti-semitism, IMO. Just as supporting Trump is aiding and abetting misogyny and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/336 "2019-07-19T16:30:39Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > How is it fair for some people to pay (proportionally) almost nothing, while others pay a significant amount which has a real impact on their quality of life? Tax a billionaire 20% and he’s still got more money than he could spend in a thousand lifetimes. He isn’t going to feel that at all. Tax someone on 30k he same percentage and that’ll have a big knock-on effect in every area of their life. > > Treating a billionaire and a warehouse worker on 30k the same even though they’re massively, _massively_ different isn’t equal. It’s a child’s understanding of equality. Yet in every other venture in life that is how they are treated. When they go to the grocery store, pay the electric bill, buy a pack of smokes, renew their drivers license, or buy a bushel of tomatoes, society takes from everyone equally. You want to buy tenderloin steak at Publix? It’s $18.99/lb. That price is the same whether you are Bill Gates or Dave Gates. That’s equality right there and if that is a child’s view, then society must be children, because we do it in almost every respect save for income tax rates. But you all don’t want to treat people equally, you want people to feel pain equally. And as I said, it doesn’t work. Charge Bill Gates $1000/lb for tenderloin. It still doesn’t “hurt” him as much. So where is the equality now? Or to be more equal do we need complete wealth redistribution? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/337 "2019-07-19T16:39:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yet in every other venture in life that is how they are treated. When they go to the grocery store, pay the electric bill, buy a pack of smokes, renew their drivers license, or buy a bushel of tomatoes, society takes from everyone equally. You want to buy tenderloin steak at Publix? It’s $18.99/lb. That price is the same whether you are Bill Gates or Dave Gates. > > That’s equality right there and if that is a child’s view, then society must be children, because we do it in almost every respect save for income tax rates. > > But you all don’t want to treat people equally, you want people to feel pain equally. And as I said, it doesn’t work. Charge Bill Gates $1000/lb for tenderloin. It still doesn’t “hurt” him as much. > > So where is the equality now? Or to be more equal do we need complete wealth redistribution? The maximum wage subject to social security tax is $132,900. Where does that fall on your “equality” scale? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/338 "2019-07-19T16:42:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which is baffling, considering I already said that wasn’t the point. Although maybe that’s why it’s not the result, it could be, I’unno. What started this diversion was that a prior poster said that a liberal value (and implicitly not a conservative one) is to “treat people equally.” When pointed out that liberals do not treat people equally, the goalposts were shifted and said that the equality of outcomes were the yardstick. When pointed out that that is not achieved either, you say that neither is the point which leaves me to wonder what is left of this whole equality argument that is a staple of left wing philosophy. Not treatment, not outcome, not any type of equality at all, yet “treating people equally” is the mark to hit. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/339 "2019-07-19T16:44:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The maximum wage subject to social security tax is $132,900. Where does that fall on your “equality” scale? Perfectly. Everyone only gets benefits that are pegged to their own wage up to that maximum wage. You get a percentage of what you made to help to maintain your lifestyle in retirement. Or, I suppose, you want to treat the rich unequally by taking more money from them in excess of the benefits you will pay them? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-conservative-values-arent-based-on-bigotry/837176/340 "2019-07-19T16:46:36Z")
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