# What constitutes a legitimate cite on this board? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148 "2005-09-11T22:05:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/21 "2005-09-11T23:22:07Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Another thing that chaps my ass is people—and luckily there aren’t too many of them—who insist that a citation be a linkable internet article. I remember that the late, unlamented **milroyj** once refused to accept a citation i provided because it came from a Lexis/Nexis search and i couldn’t provide him with a direct link to the article. The fact that i listed the newspaper, the date, and the page number of the article was not enough for him. Ahhhh, **milroyj** , we knew him well…here’s the original response: > [@milroyj](#): > > mhendo, I am not questioning your honesty in any way. But I find it kinda strange that literally no one can provide a legitimate cite for the quotation. > > [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org) is not a cite > [charlierose.com](http://charlierose.com) is not a cite > [underreported.com](http://underreported.com) is not a cite > [freepressed.com](http://freepressed.com) is not a cite > > Saying that it’s on a [transcripts.tv](http://transcripts.tv) but that you’re not going to pay for it is not a cite. > > Saying that you found it on Lexus/Nexis, but can’t link to it, is not a cite. > **[ElvisL1ves Speaks From the Ass](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274735)** > > In this thread, http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274416 ElvisL1ves strenuously makes the claim that Barbara Bush made the following statement on Good Morning America on March 18, 2003. Curiously, though, when pressed for a... ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/22 "2005-09-11T23:30:32Z")
I wonder if he would have accepted a book or periodical as a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/23 "2005-09-11T23:39:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > My post is my cite. My stupid forgery is my cite and I’m going to piss in your bag and then sue if I’m banned sorry that was a joke please don’t ban me smack ouch. {Kyle Rayner, we hardly knew ye} ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/24 "2005-09-12T00:34:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I agree that the language in the _SW_ article was fairly polemical. So what? Freepers don’t get ignored for posting information; they get ignored for posting editorial opinions that do not jibe with facts. Isn’t pretty much everything posting on _SW_ an editorial opinion? After all, they’re not a fact-gathering orginization like the AP, Reuters, CNN, BBC, or AFP. You admit that Freepers are ignored (for obvious reasons), so why aren’t the socialist workers given the same consideration? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/25 "2005-09-12T00:49:31Z")
Wow! This is the closest I’ve ever come to being pitted! ::stops to bask for a moment:: Ok, then. It’s pretty deceptive to link directly to my post and claim that it is being offered as a cite by a Doper. As I thought I made pretty darn clear in the other thread… **That article in the Socialist Worker is being quoted by UPI !!11!!!** UPI used it in a story _complete with quotes from the sheriff in question verifying that yes he did prevent them from leaving_! Jesus Fricking Aunt Louise, did you ever get around to reading the UPI article at all? Or did you just see the words Socialist Worker and your brain short-circuited?!? By the way, if you actually click on the link to the UPI article (you know, the article the thread is actually about, which you bitched and moaned about just because it was linked to via the _Washington Monthly_), you’ll see it’s hosted at _The Washington Times_. Gasp! A conservative paper printed the article which is using quotes from the Socialist Worker. Will poor **Updike** ’s head explode? Will he retaliate by opening yet another thread accusing me of ruining the “fight against ignorance”? I can hardly wait. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/26 "2005-09-12T00:56:29Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Isn’t pretty much everything posting on SW an editorial opinion? > [@LilyoftheValley](#): > > Or did you just see the words Socialist Worker and your brain short-circuited?!? The answer is yes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/27 "2005-09-12T00:59:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t pretty much everything posting on SW an editorial opinion? No. The article that you dismissed, apparently without reading, was a firsthand account, not an opinion piece by the editors of _SW_ or other suppliers of Op-Ed pieces. > [@](#): > > You admit that Freepers are ignored (for obvious reasons) No. I said that when Freepers are ignored, it is when they post opinion that is not supported by fact–just as [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) and Drudge are ignored _when they post claims not supported by facts_. In this case, we have third party confirmation of some claims made by the _SW_ witnesses and interviews with the police, themselves, that confirm some of the _SW_ acounts. If you wished to attack the _SW_ account for exaggeration or even distortion, then you were free to find evidence of their errors. Instead, you began with the assertion that we should ignore everything posted on the site, then dragged in your looter red herrings. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/28 "2005-09-12T01:30:42Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > ## Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfian Dude. Ctrl+F. > > Dude, what does that mean? That’s funny. I had no idea what that meant either, so the first thing I did was press Ctrl+F on my keyboard, and I instantly had the answer. Reminds me of my dad - he’s always afraid he’s gonna press the wrong button, so he never experiments. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/29 "2005-09-12T01:32:15Z")
P.S. - I wish I had known about that a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/30 "2005-09-12T02:07:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. The article that you dismissed, apparently without reading, was a firsthand account, not an opinion piece by the editors of _SW_ or other suppliers of Op-Ed pieces. Oh, I read it alright. One and a half times, at least. I couldn’t finish reading it the second time, on pain of losing my supper. What school of Journalism do you subscribe to, anyway? The one where they make up words for their headlines? Sheroes indeed. Or the ones who try to claim, with a straight face, that the windows “gave way” to the looters. No, somebody, and at this point I don’t care who, broke those windows. To say otherwise is Alice in Wonderland fantasy, not journalism. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/31 "2005-09-12T02:14:08Z")
**Updike** , when they said, “the windows gave way to looters”, that is called a METAPHOR. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/32 "2005-09-12T02:32:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Updike** , when they said, “the windows gave way to looters”, that is called a METAPHOR. Is metaphor called for in an alleged news source? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/33 "2005-09-12T02:36:38Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > No, somebody, and at this point I don’t care who, broke those windows. Like, say, **looters**? > [@](#): > > To say otherwise is Alice in Wonderland fantasy, not journalism. Who do you think it is implied that broke the windows, if not looters? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/34 "2005-09-12T02:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > What school of Journalism do you subscribe to, anyway? The one where they make up words for their headlines? Sheroes indeed. Or the ones who try to claim, with a straight face, that the windows “gave way” to the looters. No, somebody, and at this point I don’t care who, broke those windows. To say otherwise is Alice in Wonderland fantasy, not journalism. It was a first person account of the event, not a reporter’s description. First person accounts can include all sorts of things that might be less than valid as third-party descriptions. Survivors may claim that the hand of God saved them or that Satan dragged away their loved ones. They may describe walls of water hundreds of feet high when water marks on the walls show that the water was “only” thirty feet over their heads. They may describe “hundreds” of people shooting “thousands” of bullets when an objective review of an incident shows that tens of people fired dozens of rounds. They may insist that they were submerged in torrential waters for minutes when the actual experience lasted only a number of (horrifying) seconds. There are legitimate reasons to question the eyewitness accounts of people emotionally involved in an incident. However, you are so busy being incensed that the _eyewitnesses_ used language that offends you that you are willing to pretend that their testimony is that of (shoddy) _journalists_ just so that you can ignore them on all counts without even considering whether their basic testimony has been supported by other witnesses–which it has. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/35 "2005-09-12T02:42:37Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Or the ones who try to claim, with a straight face, that the windows “gave way” to the looters. No, somebody, and at this point I don’t care who, broke those windows. SAT-style question: Based on the information in the quote, the windows were broken by: a) Rampaging emus b) Katrina’s last hurrah c) Martians d) **THE LOOTERS** Take your time. A wrong answer counts against you. Did you answer “D”? If so, excellent: you were able to derive meaning from the quote correctly. As such, the writer performed her job sheroically: she communicated her meaning to you in a manner that enabled you to grasp it. If you were confused as to the correct answer, I have to say, that’s not the writer’s fault. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/36 "2005-09-12T02:45:47Z")
I can’t believe I’m back here again (especially since **Updike** has never addressed the UPI portion of this discussion), but I’ll take one more shot at this. The SW report was “cited” as no more and no less than it is – a reportedly first-hand account by two people who were known to have been in New Orleans for a conference of EMS workers. _It has never been presented as an impartial article by journalists, despite your projections._ The Katrina thread in which you imply we’re all accepting the SW “cite” without question also discusses the corroborating evidence for this story (or lack thereof for certain details). Frankly, it seems to me that UPI has accepted the account far more willingly than Dopers have. With any firsthand account from a stranger, I’d hope you wouldn’t accept it as “fact”, no matter where it’s published. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/37 "2005-09-12T02:54:11Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Is metaphor called for in an alleged news source? The greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor. It is the one thing that cannot be learned from others; it is also a sign of genius, since a good metaphor implies an eye for resemblance. - Aristotle, De Poetica, 322 BCE. Without metaphor, our president would be left sucking vacuum, instead of defending himself with saucy little turns of phrase like “blame game.” ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/38 "2005-09-12T03:16:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It was a first person account of the event, not a reporter’s description. First person accounts can include all sorts of things that might be less than valid as third-party descriptions. Survivors may claim that the hand of God saved them or that Satan dragged away their loved ones. They may describe walls of water hundreds of feet high when water marks on the walls show that the water was “only” thirty feet over their heads. They may describe “hundreds” of people shooting “thousands” of bullets when an objective review of an incident shows that tens of people fired dozens of rounds. They may insist that they were submerged in torrential waters for minutes when the actual experience lasted only a number of (horrifying) seconds. > There are legitimate reasons to question the eyewitness accounts of people emotionally involved in an incident. > > However, you are so busy being incensed that the _eyewitnesses_ used language that offends you that you are willing to pretend that their testimony is that of (shoddy) _journalists_ just so that you can ignore them on all counts without even considering whether their basic testimony has been supported by other witnesses–which it has. First-hand, third-hand, what difference does it make? They sound like Bobby Brady. Mom always said, don’t play ball in the house. The vase broke. Um, no. Why can’t people take responsibility for their own actions, or, barring that, at least ascribe responsiblity to the appropriate parties? The windows did not give way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/39 "2005-09-12T03:22:58Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Why can’t people take responsibility for their own actions, or, barring that, at least ascribe responsiblity to the appropriate parties? The windows did not give way. So, uh, you failed the quiz, didja? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148/40 "2005-09-12T03:24:37Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > our president would be left sucking vacuum I hope that’s not a metaphor, or we’ll have to dismiss your whole post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-cite-on-this-board/321148.md?page=3)