# What constitutes "acceptable" cultural appropriation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031 "2014-10-30T17:08:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/41 "2014-10-31T16:08:23Z")
Yesterday I read about a [kerfuffle](http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-29831183). Jamie Oliver (whose name is only vaguely familiar to me) is getting some pushback from West Africans about his rendention of jollof rice. On one hand, I don’t get it. OK, so his recipe departs significantly from the traditional formula. But it’s just food, for chrissake. And food is meant to be experimented with and blended with other traditions. But on the (bigger) hand, I totally get it. Most Westerners don’t know what jollof rice is. (I only have a vague understanding because I’m of a casual fan of Nigerian literature). If their only exposure to this dish is through Jamie Oliver, then they aren’t getting an accurate depiction of what the authentic, traditional dish really is. It would be like someone bringing Pizza Hut to an isolated community and passing it off Italian cuisine. And then profiting from the false cache. Would it be cultural appropriation for a West African chef to take an American dish (let’s say, country fried steak and mashed potatoes) and add an African flare? I don’t think so. American cuisine is pretty ubiquitous and mass-marketed. There’s probaby just a handful of countries where there isn’t a KFC. It’s not in danger of being extinguished anytime soon. But if you’re from a culture that isn’t widely known or valued, you’re going to be very protective of your cultural treasures. A jollof rice suited for Western taste buds symbolizes a dominant culture swallowing up a minority culture. Sure, cultures change. But no one really wants to see everything about their culture change right before their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/42 "2014-10-31T16:13:11Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Anything and everything is fine as long as it causes no physical or material harm. This bears repeating, as it is the correct answer. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/43 "2014-10-31T16:28:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Yesterday I read about a [kerfuffle](http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-29831183). Jamie Oliver (whose name is only vaguely familiar to me) is getting some pushback from West Africans about his rendention of jollof rice. > [@](#): > > The traditional dish is made with tomatoes and spices and it’s widely considered part of the heart and soul of the region. Ah yes, made with traditional West African tomatoes! A plant which has always grown in African and was never appropriated from anywhere. :rolleyes: For that matter, I’m sure the rice was domesticated there and certainly not “appropriated” from China. The traditional jollof rice recipe itself was not invented from thin air. It had culinary predecessors and influences, not to mention foreign ingredients. So who appropriated what? Apparently, “appropriation” is cool so long as it always happens in the past and no one has to see it in progress? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/44 "2014-10-31T16:32:54Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Ah yes, made with traditional West African tomatoes! A plant which has always grown in African and was never appropriated from anywhere. :rolleyes: For that matter, I’m sure the rice was domesticated there and certainly not “appropriated” from China. > > The traditional jollof rice recipe itself was not invented from thin air. It had culinary predecessors and influences, not to mention foreign ingredients. So who appropriated what? > > Apparently, “appropriation” is cool so long as it always happens in the past and no one has to see it in progress? Good point! For that matter, what are we to call “traditional” Irish or Italian foods? Just 500 years ago, Italians didn’t know what tomatoes were, and Irishmen didn’t know what potatoes were. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/45 "2014-10-31T16:33:30Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Ah yes, made with traditional West African tomatoes! A plant which has always grown in African and was never appropriated from anywhere. :rolleyes: For that matter, I’m sure the rice was domesticated there and certainly not “appropriated” from China. > > The traditional jollof rice recipe itself was not invented from thin air. It had culinary predecessors and influences, not to mention foreign ingredients. So who appropriated what? > > Apparently, “appropriation” is cool so long as it always happens in the past and no one has to see it in progress? There’s a native West African rice species, _glaberrima_. Although most of the rice they eat nowadays is the Asian species. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/46 "2014-10-31T16:34:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Apparently, “appropriation” is cool so long as it always happens in the past and no one has to see it in progress? Yup, just like economic creative destruction and etiquette changes. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/47 "2014-10-31T16:34:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Good point! For that matter, what are we to call “traditional” Irish or Italian foods? > > Just 500 years ago, Italians didn’t know what tomatoes were, and Irishmen didn’t know what potatoes were. Indians and Pakistanis didn’t know what chilies were, either. A couple plants actually did make the pre-Columbian exchange, sweet potatoes most famously. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/48 "2014-10-31T16:42:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What can be wrong with listening to ethnic music? I would have thought it was fine, but as I noted in my OP, Paul Simon caught a ration of shit for his Graceland album. In other words, some people thought it was wrong that he was _making_ ethnic music - so I would assume there’s some people out there (not me) who think it’s wrong to _listen_ to ethnic music (i.e. music not of your own culture). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/49 "2014-10-31T17:32:22Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It is religiously disrespectful, but is that not a form of cultural appropriation? Religion is unquestionably a component of culture. That the name and image of a figure of religious veneration have _right_ and _wrong_ depictions can only be a culturally-dependent judgment. (It’s not even necessarily a question of belief versus unbelief. Some self-described Christians hate the way other self-described Christians depict or talk about Jesus.) I was thinking about it more along the lines of not being cultural appropriation, because they’d be every bit as irritated with an Indian person dressed as Kali as with Heidi Klum. It didn’t have anything to do at all with Heidi Klum being a white German woman. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/50 "2014-10-31T17:44:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But if you’re from a culture that isn’t widely known or valued, you’re going to be very protective of your cultural treasures. A jollof rice suited for Western taste buds symbolizes a dominant culture swallowing up a minority culture. Sure, cultures change. But no one really wants to see everything about their culture change right before their eyes. From what I read, it sounds like the Africans are new to the food party, and being absurdly dogmatic about what goes in their dishes; they’re getting wound up over what amounts to minutiae like whether the dish uses tomato puree or cherry tomatoes, or whether cilantro or parsley or lemon can be in it. Recipes migrate and change with new ingredients and new views; you don’t see French people getting all bent out of shape because their cuisine migrated to Louisiana and became something different. You don’t see Belgians getting their panties in a wad because people make different kinds of frites, or worse, call them French fries. You don’t see the British pitching a fit because other people fry fish and potatoes and call it fish and chips. And you don’t see us Americans getting bent out of shape at the various hamburgers (and hamburger-oid) made and served elsewhere in the world. Mexicans don’t get bent out of shape at Tex-Mex, etc… All of us may point out that the other renditions may not be quite authentic, but it’s not worth the level of anger that the article refers to. They need to suck it up and deal though; it’s food, not sacking of their temples or hauling their children off to be Janissaries, and in the 21st century, someone’s going to riff off their traditional cuisine whether they like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/51 "2014-10-31T17:44:47Z")
Ah, I see your point. Still, that could be construed as a… subcultural appropriation? Of devout Hindus, by an other-religious, atheist, or irreverent Indian? Cultures are more than ethnicity, after all. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/52 "2014-10-31T17:51:39Z")
I think 99% of the time it is harmless, but offense can be taken when people take it really far and try to pass themselves off as some sort of noble king or guru of another culture. I can see some Westerners rolling their eyes if a foreigner pretended to be (depending on your preference) the Pope, a British Royal, a decorated American military man or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/53 "2014-10-31T17:55:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I would have thought it was fine, but as I noted in my OP, Paul Simon caught a ration of shit for his Graceland album. In other words, some people thought it was wrong that he was _making_ ethnic music - so I would assume there’s some people out there (not me) who think it’s wrong to _listen_ to ethnic music (i.e. music not of your own culture). I thought the shitload Simon caught wasn’t cultural appropriation, but crossing an anti-apartheid barricade. If Ladysmith Black Mambazo were in exile in London when Simon came to work with them, this wouldn’t have been a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/54 "2014-10-31T20:22:55Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It is religiously disrespectful, but is that not a form of cultural appropriation? Religion is unquestionably a component of culture. That the name and image of a figure of religious veneration have _right_ and _wrong_ depictions can only be a culturally-dependent judgment. (It’s not even necessarily a question of belief versus unbelief. Some self-described Christians hate the way other self-described Christians depict or talk about Jesus.) I just looked up the photos of the woman dressed as Kali…and didn’t see anything disrespectful. She looks almost exactly like real religious artistic depictions of Kali. She was, if anything, more dignified – she didn’t have her tongue lolling out or her eyes rolling. I’ve seen people do Jesus Christ for Halloween; usually it’s at least neutral, neither respectful nor disrespectful. Even with the addition of a cross, it’s no more than an historical reproduction. It beats the hell out of burnt-cork blackface minstrel costumes…which, to my amazement, I still see now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/55 "2014-10-31T20:29:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What can be wrong with listening to ethnic music? That’s like saying it’s wrong for an Australian to look at a Monet painting of trees and water. Well, it isn’t so much the listening as the producing that’s being objected to. But, even so, yes, there is an asymmetry, noted above, having to do with “punching down.” Since the native Australians were so brutally treated by the Anglo newcomers, it can be seen as more offensive for an Anglo to borrow Aboriginal art, music, costume, etc. At least, that’s the notion many people hold. Quite possibly, some Aborigine leaders would object to one of their people studying Monet. “Why are you allowing the culture of the invaders to displace your native artistic viewing?” Ideally, everyone should be free to participate in whatever they like. There was a story about a little girl of Chinese ethnic origin, adopted by U.S. parents…who was really into Irish folk dancing. She got good enough to participate at competition level. At first, some people objected…but pretty much got over it, when it was clear she was serious (and good!) ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/56 "2014-10-31T20:32:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Pat Boone made a lot of lame records, but he didn’t “steal” anything. He gave credit to Fats Domino for “Ain’t That a Shame,” and Fats earned a fortune in royalties as a result. When Boone first MET him, the Fat Man was driving a fancy new Cadillac- and he thanked Pat for buying it for him! > > Boone also gave credit to Little Richard and Robert Blackwell for “Long Tall Sally,” and they subsequently raked in a lot of money. > > No, Pat’s versions were nowhere as good as the original recordings, but Pat didn’t rip anyone off, and the artists whose songs he covered have nothing to complain about. As “bland” as Boone’s recordings were, they did a lot to make rock music more accepted. His contributions to the growth of rock music have been acknowledged by a lot of people: > **[Pat Boone](http://rockhist.blogspot.com/2011/06/pat-boone.html)** > > Pat Boone Why is an old rocker including Pat Boone in his rock and roll  blog ? That's simple. Pat Boone was a major player in rock and... > **[Get Pat Boone Inducted Into The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame](https://www.60plus.org/get-pat-boone-inducted-into-the-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame/)** > > Sign the petition! > > > > > Petitions by iPetitions.com > > > > > Pat Boone was one of the artists that served as a 'Bridge' in preparing the way for the budding R&B-based rock and roll explosion to come. In those times the cover song was a common... > **[Why Aren’t They In The Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame: Pat Boone](https://edgeinducedcohesion.blog/2013/06/02/why-arent-they-in-the-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-pat-boone/)** > > Pat Boone is one of the most controversial of the names for acceptance into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is that he is generally derided as someo… ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/57 "2014-10-31T23:00:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I just looked up the photos of the woman dressed as Kali…and didn’t see anything disrespectful. She looks almost exactly like real religious artistic depictions of Kali. She was, if anything, more dignified – she didn’t have her tongue lolling out or her eyes rolling. > > I’ve seen people do Jesus Christ for Halloween; usually it’s at least neutral, neither respectful nor disrespectful. Even with the addition of a cross, it’s no more than an historical reproduction. I think **bump** had the right of it: it’s nothing about the details of the costume, or the wearer, that makes it disrespectful; it’s the fact of it being a play-time costume at all. The Hindu gods (whether taken literally or metaphorically) are not _for_ that. Unquestionably many Christians feel the same about Jesus, regardless how ‘authentic’ a rendition it might be. (Dressing as a religious figure might be appropriate and respectful in _some_ contexts, where religion or historical reproduction is the actual object, but not just for Halloween or a party.) And this approaches what I find the crux of the issue. I believe, as a human of planet Earth, that all of human culture everywhere is potentially part of the tapestry of my heritage… if I embrace it. That doesn’t mean I can do anything I want with it because I think it looks cool, or whatever. That means I am as entitled as anyone to try to understand what it actually is and means, and that if I find that it works for me, I can take it into myself and use it in my life, and even contribute to the extension of that culture. I think **Geek Mecha** spoke along these lines: the key is whether the signs and artifacts are being used to _participate_, in some fashion or degree, in the culture. Then it’s not so much an appropriation–a taking–as a joining. It seems to me that Paul Simon and Kurosawa and the Irish-dancing girl and the klezmer band did this, in various ways. I suspect Katy Perry and Heidi Klum did not. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/58 "2014-10-31T23:44:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > . . . And this approaches what I find the crux of the issue. I believe, as a human of planet Earth, that all of human culture everywhere is potentially part of the tapestry of my heritage… if I embrace it. . . . I guess I’m just a westernized libertine. I feel it’s all “public domain” and I can name a beer after it, airbrush it on my garden shed, market it on a bumper sticker, whatever. It’s the common heritage of all mankind, without ideological limitations. I won’t say my view is right. But, this is the IMHO forum and that’s mine. (No one should be a jerk, of course… But even being a jerk is a guaranteed liberty in a free society. The alternative would be variations on “politically correct” censorship. Or, I guess, free-market boycotts, which are fine. If some jasper markets “Kali Beer,” “good enough to die for; good enough to kill for,” that would be a bit jerkish, and a lot of people would refuse to buy it. Me, I’d buy a bottle to keep as a souvenir.) ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/59 "2014-10-31T23:44:39Z")
Work is work; you do what they ask and dress in the uniform. Home is Home. For Example, if my kid wants to Trick or Treat as Death and someone says we are co-opting it? Prove it. Go ahead & Effing Die. I’ll wait. Me? If I want to follow my kid around to keep him safe from the sidewalk, that’s my right. And if I dress up in something from Marvel, You Better Be Stan-F-cking-Lee to say I’m co-opting anything (and your shoes better be 2 inches from my boots At Best). 'Nuff Said. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031/60 "2014-10-31T23:55:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No one should be a jerk, of course… But even being a jerk is a guaranteed liberty in a free society. I agree. The question was, what is “acceptable,” which I take to mean, what is not jerkish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-constitutes-acceptable-cultural-appropriation/703031.md?page=4)