# What could be used for bullets instead of lead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641 "2010-08-27T07:09:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/21 "2010-08-27T15:21:28Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > > [@Lightnin](#): > > > > Frankly, that kinda scares the crap out of me. > > Is this because you dispute the low bioavailability claim, or for another reason? The sheer tonnage, actually. Too much of anything, even of something relatively inert, can’t be good. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/22 "2010-08-27T15:27:17Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > From a purely physical standpoint, gold would be one of the best metals to make bullets from. It’s much denser than lead and has essentially no toxicity. There’s just something so … _human_ inherent in considering the toxicity of bullets. I get the distinction between target and waste product, but it’s bizarre nonetheless. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > The US has a ban on lead in game miniatures, too. They aren’t and weren’t really toys, and I don’t find pewter to be a good substitute. It’s more expensive and harder to alter. Most people took care that kids didn’t play with those miniatures, because they were rather expensive, and usually the owners had spent a bit of time and effort to paint them By game miniatures, do you mean those small D&D figurines? I have a slew of them from the 80s–should I be keeping them away from the Dudeling? A link or whatnot is fine, I don’t want to derail the thread. A man could get shot for something like that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/23 "2010-08-27T15:41:49Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > > > The US has a ban on lead in game miniatures, too. They aren’t and weren’t really toys, and I don’t find pewter to be a good substitute. It’s more expensive and harder to alter. Most people took care that kids didn’t play with those miniatures, because they were rather expensive, and usually the owners had spent a bit of time and effort to paint them > > By game miniatures, do you mean those small D&D figurines? I have a slew of them from the 80s–should I be keeping them away from the Dudeling? A link or whatnot is fine, I don’t want to derail the thread. A man could get shot for something like that. Yes, those. The lead ban didn’t come into effect until the 90s, I believe, so most if not all figurines from the 80s are going to be lead. I would keep them away from kids younger than about six or seven, or at least old enough to understand not to put them in their mouths. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/24 "2010-08-27T15:57:40Z")
Wow, thanks. I’m glad I didn’t eat too many of them as a kid (pointy bits didn’t go down well)! ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/25 "2010-08-27T15:59:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But isn’t Bismuth pretty rare? I know it’s a by-product of lead production, but starting to use it in the quantities that lead is used would deplete resources very rapidly, right? Somewhat rarer, but not ridiculously so, and it already has a number of industrial uses: > **[WebElements Periodic Table » Bismuth » uses](https://www.webelements.com/bismuth/uses.html)** > > This WebElements periodic table page contains uses for the element bismuth Metallic bismuth is in the vicinity of 10-20 times the cost of lead, which does make bismuth shot more expensive. I would guess that an increased demand for making shot could be absorbed. How many gallons of pink bismuth (eg, Pepto-Bismol)are manufactured every year? Offhand, I don’t know how bismuth subsalicylate is manufactured, but that’s a LOT of that particular bismuth compound. There have been studies questioning the supposed low toxicity of bismuth, too. It’s a lot less toxic than lead, though. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/26 "2010-08-27T16:21:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@dtilque](#): > > > > From a purely physical standpoint, gold would be one of the best metals to make bullets from. It’s much denser than lead and has essentially no toxicity. > > It would serve other purposes as well. Gold bullets would be significantly more expensive. That would provide an economic incentive for people to be more thoughtful about who they choose to shoot. I think it was Chris Rock who had a bit about gun control not being effective about controlling inner-city violence … but if you made bullets $1,000 each, people would think twice about drive-bys and spraying ammo every which way. I had no idea the man was an environmentalist, too! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/27 "2010-08-27T16:34:57Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > Steel is lighter and less powerful than lead…Some people also say that there’s a risk that it can blow the gun. This is true; steel shouldn’t be used with more than 1/2 choke. Yeah, I inherited an otherwise very fine shotgun with a barrel that’s been deformed by use of steel shot. Or so the gunsmith tells me. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/28 "2010-08-27T17:03:10Z")
Copper has been mentioned, but then largely dropped, in this conversation. Solid copper projectiles are reasonably available, effective, and inexpensive. I’ve seen them for everything from air rifles to heavy smooth-bores. Not so cheap as lead, but then you don’t need to pay so much for cleanup, and can use them on an indoor range without expensive environmental controls. They don’t expand so easily as jacketed lead, but there are ways around that. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/29 "2010-08-27T18:29:57Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > The US has a ban on lead in game miniatures, too. They aren’t and weren’t really toys, and I don’t find pewter to be a good substitute. It’s more expensive and harder to alter. Doesn’t pewter contain arsenic? Or is that a myth I absorbed from people complaining about the change to pewter figurines? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/30 "2010-08-27T18:37:24Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > > > The US has a ban on lead in game miniatures, too. They aren’t and weren’t really toys, and I don’t find pewter to be a good substitute. It’s more expensive and harder to alter. > > Doesn’t pewter contain arsenic? Or is that a myth I absorbed from people complaining about the change to pewter figurines? You may be confusing antimony. Various alloys have been called “pewter”. They are mostly tin, with varying amounts of copper, antimony, bismuth and lead. Lead is no longer generally used in modern pewter alloys, and certainly not “food grade” pewter, but was used historically. ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/31 "2010-08-27T18:51:44Z")
I think they should require silver bullets with explosive, garlic juice tips. You would be ready for werewolves, vampires and even zombies. No more fumbling around trying to figure out which is the correct round for any given situation. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/32 "2010-08-27T19:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I think they should require silver bullets with explosive, garlic juice tips. You would be ready for werewolves, vampires and even zombies. No more fumbling around trying to figure out which is the correct round for any given situation. And witches. I was surprised to learn that silver bullets were originally the prescription against witches, long before they were applied to werewolves.I don’t know why ordinary bullets weren’t considered good enough for witches. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/33 "2010-08-27T19:43:13Z")
[ul] [li]The Lone Ranger used silver bullets too.[/li][li]Didn’t know there were that many witches and werewolves in the old west.[/li][li]\<— Get it? Bullets. No groans only encourages me[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/34 "2010-08-27T19:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t know there were that many witches and werewolves in the old west. Forrey Ackerman used this in a one-page story in his old _Famous Monsters of Filmland_ magazine back in the 1960s. > [@](#): > > \<— Get it? Bullets. No groans only encourages me If you _really_ wanted this to work, you should’ve gone into the HTML codes and changed the bullet’s color code to slate gray, or something to approximate silver. Or used #C0C0C0. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/35 "2010-08-27T20:13:51Z")
Excellent advice. I’m not that visually oriented. Noticed some artifacts in the results. Will try to incorporate more color in other bad puns. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/36 "2010-08-27T21:14:14Z")
The problem is density: lead is just denser than most other materials, and the alloys/elements that are denser are usually rather expensive. No idea on how other countries handle the issue, but in the U.S., alternate materials for shot or bullets range from merely expensive (Barnes all-copper TSX bullet ~2x a comparable lead bullet) to hideous. When I last looked at prices for Heavi-shot (a bismuth heavy allow, IIRC) and tungsten matrix shot, they were roughly 15-25 times as expensive as lead. Steel is about the same price as lead, but is much less desirable ballistically. I won’t even get into the increase in cost the proposed ban will mean for handgun bullets, where many shooters cast their own lead bullets vs now being forced to buy pre-made bullets. With copper, sure the Barnes bullets (solid copper, for the most part; all are lead free) are supposed to expand wonderfully and retain weight; the problem is copper’s lack of density. With lighter density, you need a longer bullet to get to a given bullet weight. Eventually, the bullets get too long to fit within the maximum cartridge overall length. Barnes gets around this by making their version of a Nosler Partition, the MRX. Its aft core is made of Silvex, which is a tungsten-heavy alloy. Playing around at Cabela’s website, they charge the same price for 20 Barnes MRX bullets as for 50 Nosler Partitions or 100 Sierra boattails. 2.5-5 times as expensive, ouch. For shot, true, you can jump up three or so shot sizes to get the “same” downrange KE, (e.g. 2 or 3 lead shot to BBB steel shot for geese), but now you have larger holes in your pattern. I understand the metallurgy of modern shotgun barrels, coupled with better shotshell wad designs, have largely eliminated the problem of scoring/galling the inside of barrels. I’m still not using them in my granddad’s vintage side-by-side. IMHO, the lead issue for all ammunition is a backdoor way to institute gun control and/or ban/heavily restrict the shooting sports. I’ve no idea what effect it’ll have on my air rifles, all of which shoot lead pellets. Time to see if RWS makes a lead-free wadcutter… I’m not even sure whether the lead shot ban has had the desired effects on waterfowl populations, beyond a “we feel good about it” effect. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/37 "2010-08-27T21:14:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > [ul] > [li]The Lone Ranger used silver bullets too.[/li][li]Didn’t know there were that many witches and werewolves in the old west.[/li][li]\<— Get it? Bullets. No groans only encourages me[/li][/ul] You just made me scratch my head for a minute… and then laugh my ass off. Better than shooting my ass of with lead, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/38 "2010-08-27T21:25:01Z")
The melting point of silver is 1763°F so Tonto never cast those in the camp fire. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/39 "2010-08-27T21:55:16Z")
Lead is also very soft so that it wears very little on the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![Moonshiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@Moonshiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonshiner)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641/40 "2010-08-27T22:14:53Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > …lead in bullets WILL get into the environment… Gee, I wonder where that lead came from originally? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-used-for-bullets-instead-of-lead/551641.md?page=3)