# What could be wrong with the swine flu vaccine?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [October 27, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369 "2009-10-27T23:29:04Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/1 "2009-10-27T23:29:04Z")

</div>

We’re trying to figure out whether we should try to get the swine flu shot.

Any other year we wouldn’t have bothered, but we have a three-month-old baby. My husband’s work brings him into contact with kids of all ages drawn from a wide pool of schools - in other words, he’s getting exposed to the germs from thirty or forty different schools on a regular basis. My work doesn’t expose me to anyone - I just have the basic exposure from going to the supermarket, taking buses, etc.

The shot’s about to be offered to people in high-risk categories, including women who gave birth less than six weeks ago, so not me. None of us is in any high-risk category, but we might try to get it as soon as it’s available to us. So I was wondering:

We keep hearing that the vaccine hasn’t been properly tested. OK, that’s probably true, but what are the dangers? Could it kill us? How? Make us sick? With what? Have bizarro long-term consequences? Like what?

Also, I’m breastfeeding. If I get the vaccine, does the kid get some measure of protection through my milk? And if the vaccine does something bad, does she get hit by that?

No one seems to be able to answer these questions, so I’m turning to you guys.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![pfile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@pfile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pfile)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/2 "2009-10-27T23:40:27Z")

</div>

where have you heard that the vaccine has not been properly tested? is this from legitimate sources?

my understanding is that the H1N1 vaccine is made in exactly the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine… so as far as testing it goes wouldn’t it be the same as the seasonal vaccine? i’m just guessing but i assume the side effects would be similar to the regular vaccine…

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/3 "2009-10-27T23:41:26Z")

</div>

Here is the [CDC page](http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_keyfacts.htm).

Yes it’s safe, yes I’d get it.

[Flu kills 36,000 people every year](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm), a reasonable percentage of those are infants. That is several orders of magnitude more that could possibly be killed by the vaccine.

More details of the safety are [here](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr58e0724a1.htm):

> [@](#):
>
> Adverse Events After Receipt of TIV  
> Children
> 
> Studies support the safety of annual TIV in children and adolescents. The largest published postlicensure population-based study assessed TIV safety in 251,600 children aged \<18 years, (including 8,476 vaccinations in children aged 6–23 months) through the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), who were enrolled in one of five health maintenance organizations (HMOs) during 1993–1999. This study indicated no increase in clinically important medically attended events during the 2 weeks after inactivated influenza vaccination compared with control periods 3–4 weeks before and after vaccination (180). A retrospective cohort study using VSD medical records data from 45,356 children aged 6–23 months provided additional evidence supporting overall safety of TIV in this age group. During the 2 weeks after vaccination, TIV was not associated with statistically significant increases in any clinically important medically attended events other than gastritis/duodenitis, and 13 diagnoses, including acute upper respiratory illness, otitis media and asthma, were significantly less common (181). On chart review, most children with a diagnosis of gastritis/duodenitis had self-limited vomiting or diarrhea. The positive or negative associations between TIV and any of these diagnoses do not necessarily indicate a causal relationship (181).
> 
> In a study of 791 healthy children aged 1–15 years, postvaccination fever was noted among 12% of those aged 1–5 years, 5% among those aged 6–10 years, and 5% among those aged 11–15 years (87). Fever, malaise, myalgia, and other systemic symptoms that can occur after vaccination with inactivated vaccine most often affect persons who have had no previous exposure to the influenza virus antigens in the vaccine (e.g., young children) (182,183). These reactions begin 6–12 hours after vaccination and can persist for 1–2 days. Data about potential adverse events among children after influenza vaccination are available from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). Because of the limitations of passive reporting systems, determining causality for specific types of adverse events usually is not possible using VAERS data alone.
> 
> Published reviews of VAERS reports submitted after administration of TIV to children aged 6–23 months indicated that the most frequently reported adverse events were fever, rash, injection-site reactions, and seizures; the majority of the limited number of reported seizures appeared to be febrile (184,185). Seizure and fever were the leading serious adverse events (SAEs), defined using standard criteria, reported to VAERS in these studies (184,185); further investigation in VSD did not confirm an association with febrile seizures as identified in VAERS (181).  
> Adults
> 
> In placebo-controlled studies among adults, the most frequent side effect of vaccination was soreness at the vaccination site (affecting 10%–64% of patients) that lasted \<2 days (186,187). These local reactions typically were mild and rarely interfered with the recipients’ ability to conduct usual daily activities. Placebo-controlled trials demonstrate that among older persons and healthy young adults, administration of TIV is not associated with higher rates for systemic symptoms (e.g., fever, malaise, myalgia, and headache) when compared with placebo injections (121,134,186–188). One prospective cohort study found that the rate of adverse events was similar among hospitalized persons who either were aged ≥65 years or were aged 18–64 years and had one or more chronic medical conditions compared with outpatients (158). Adverse events in adults aged ≥18 years reported to VAERS during 1990–2005 were analyzed. The most common adverse events reported to VAERS in adults included injection-site reactions, pain, fever, myalgia, and headache. The VAERS review identified no new safety concerns. In clinical trials, SAEs were reported to occur after vaccination with TIV at a rate of \<1%. A small proportion (14%) of the TIV VAERS reports in adults were classified as SAEs, without assessment of causality. The most common SAE reported after TIV in VAERS in adults was Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) (189). The potential association between TIV and GBS has been an area of ongoing research (see Guillain-Barré Syndrome and TIV).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/4 "2009-10-27T23:46:11Z")

</div>

Our GP thinks it hasn’t been thoroughly tested.

I’m pretty sure that the consequences of not getting it could be worse than the consequences of getting it… I just want to know what on earth I’m supposed to be worrying about. What do they test \*for \*that they haven’t tested this for?

If I had the baby but wasn’t breastfeeding, I’d probably go ahead and get it - any side effects to me would be outweighed by the lesser likelihood of her getting swine flu - but again, I don’t know if I could pass unspecified weird stuff to the widget in breast milk. So I want to get the weird stuff specified.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/5 "2009-10-27T23:47:28Z")

</div>

> [@pfile](#):
>
> where have you heard that the vaccine has not been properly tested? is this from legitimate sources?
> 
> my understanding is that the H1N1 vaccine is made in exactly the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine… so as far as testing it goes wouldn’t it be the same as the seasonal vaccine? i’m just guessing but i assume the side effects would be similar to the regular vaccine…

My roomie and I are guinea pigs for a testing lab in Rhode Island, and have both gotten the H1N1 vaccine, and haven’t turned green or exploded …

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/6 "2009-10-27T23:50:43Z")

</div>

> [@eclectic\_wench](#):
>
> Our GP thinks it hasn’t been thoroughly tested.

I would get a new GP ASAP. YMMV

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/7 "2009-10-27T23:55:13Z")

</div>

> [@eclectic\_wench](#):
>
> If I had the baby but wasn’t breastfeeding, I’d probably go ahead and get it - any side effects to me would be outweighed by the lesser likelihood of her getting swine flu - but again, I don’t know if I could pass unspecified weird stuff to the widget in breast milk. So I want to get the weird stuff specified.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that even the worst possible side effects (the kind of things that you’ll see in a handful of people on the face of the planet) could conceivably be passed on by breastfeeding.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Electronic\_Chaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Electronic\_Chaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electronic_Chaos)\
**Post date:** [October 27, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/8 "2009-10-27T23:58:11Z")

</div>

> [@eclectic\_wench](#):
>
> Our GP thinks it hasn’t been thoroughly tested.
> 
> I’m pretty sure that the consequences of not getting it could be worse than the consequences of getting it… I just want to know what on earth I’m supposed to be worrying about. What do they test \*for \*that they haven’t tested this for?
> 
> If I had the baby but wasn’t breastfeeding, I’d probably go ahead and get it - any side effects to me would be outweighed by the lesser likelihood of her getting swine flu - but again, I don’t know if I could pass unspecified weird stuff to the widget in breast milk. So I want to get the weird stuff specified.

My wife is breastfeeding, and our pediatrician told us both to get the H1N1 vaccine ASAP. You will pass on antibodies to your child, which is a good thing.

From what I’ve heard, the H1N1 vaccine was manufactured just like the seasonal flu vaccine is every year.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/9 "2009-10-28T00:03:47Z")

</div>

Thanks, Griffin and Electronic Chaos - that’s the kind of stuff I need to know. I appreciate it.

I’m not paranoid about vaccines in general. I just prefer to know what I’m discounting before I go ahead and discount it.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/10 "2009-10-28T01:23:18Z")

</div>

> [@eclectic\_wench](#):
>
> The shot’s about to be offered to people in high-risk categories, including women who gave birth less than six weeks ago, so not me. None of us is in any high-risk category, but we might try to get it as soon as it’s available to us.

You are most definitely in the high-risk category. Or rather, the “Target Population” for the first round of shots. From my county’s flu web site:

> [@](#):
>
> - Pregnant women  
> \*\*\* Household contacts and caregivers for children younger than 6 months of age\*\*
> - Healthcare personnel and emergency medical services personnel
> - All people from 6 months through 24 years of age
> - Persons aged 25 through 64 years who have health conditions associated with higher risk of medical complications from influenza.

(bolding mine)

I just stood in line for 4.5 hours to get my shot today, because I am regularly in contact with a 1-month-old and a 4-month-old.

FWIW I couldn’t believe the number of people who managed to get their kids to stand in line, outside, for 4.5 hours (half of that time it was dark and cold). Toddlers, kids in strollers, pregnant women, and a smattering of us caregivers - about 2500 in all. The workers at the site told us people started lining up at noon for the 4PM opening of the clinic. Amazing!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/11 "2009-10-28T01:24:52Z")

</div>

What I think is causing all this hesitation is a few weeks ago some world-famous doctor (and he can’t be all that famous because I can’t remember his name) was pontificating about the flu on a segment of the Today Show. I do clearly remember he said, when asked if HE was going to get this shot, that he was going to “wait and see how it goes”.:eek: Well! If a world-famous doctor on TV indicated HE was hesitant…!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/12 "2009-10-28T01:30:02Z")

</div>

You wouldn’t be talking about the [Andrew Wakefield](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield) interview would you?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/13 "2009-10-28T12:53:22Z")

</div>

In my city, a healthy 13 yr old hockey player went from a slight cough to dead on his bathroom floor, largely without any other symptoms in less than 48 hrs. Just happened.

This will serve to move people off the fence, I believe.

Get the shot!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/14 "2009-10-28T13:28:47Z")

</div>

[This article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1) makes the argument that the greatest harm from H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccines is that they have not been proven to do much - if any - good.

Well, and also if vaccines are not efficacious, reliance on them is detracting resources from other efforts that could be more useful.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/15 "2009-10-28T13:53:25Z")

</div>

> [@WarmNPrickly](#):
>
> You wouldn’t be talking about the [Andrew Wakefield](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield) interview would you?

I don’t think so…Dr. Andrew Weil, maybe. I can’t find any cite.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Eleanor\_of\_Aquitaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/16 "2009-10-28T13:54:05Z")

</div>

> [@Dinsdale](#):
>
> [This article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1) makes the argument that the greatest harm from H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccines is that they have not been proven to do much - if any - good.
> 
> Well, and also if vaccines are not efficacious, reliance on them is detracting resources from other efforts that could be more useful.

Well, that’s depressing.

We’re going to try to get the H1N1 vaccine for our son today, because his asthma places him in the high-risk group. Don’t know what the lines will be like, though.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/17 "2009-10-28T14:01:08Z")

</div>

Ok, here’s another “should I get the vaccine” question.

My 4-yr old son picked up H1N1 a few weeks ago (flu was confirmed by doctor, H1N1 was assumed because the seasonal flu hadn’t been active yet). He promptly spread it to my daughter (3) and my wife.

I spent almost a week wiping brows, cleaning up vomit, and sleeping with (& kissing) a woman with H1N1. I braced myself, but I never got sick at all.

Now – any reason for my family to get the vaccines, since they’ve already had and recovered from H1N1? And any reason for me to get it, since I’ve already been exposed and apparently I am resistant or fought it off?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/18 "2009-10-28T14:13:07Z")

</div>

> [@Dinsdale](#):
>
> [This article](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1) makes the argument that the greatest harm from H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccines is that they have not been proven to do much - if any - good.
> 
> Well, and also if vaccines are not efficacious, reliance on them is detracting resources from other efforts that could be more useful.

There has certainly been some research that suggests the flu vaccine is less effective than other vaccines. In the case of H1N1 though, it is a virus that your body has not seen at all. The vaccine gives your body advanced warning of what to look for, even if it does not entirely prevent the flu. In my own experience, since getting the yearly vaccine, I have only had the flu once in 15 years.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/19 "2009-10-28T14:17:30Z")

</div>

> [@](#):
>
> We keep hearing that the vaccine hasn’t been properly tested. OK, that’s probably true, but what are the dangers?

Its not “probably” true: Its not true at all. One of the reasons for these delays was because of the high level of testing this vaccine got. Unless you have an egg allergy, you’ll be fine. More info here:

[http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/public/vaccination\_qa\_pub.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/public/vaccination_qa_pub.htm)

> [@](#):
>
> If I get the vaccine, does the kid get some measure of protection through my milk?

No, but if you get sick you will pass H1N1 to your child. Your child will also receive some of your antibodies via the milk, its doubtful it will be enough to actually stop this virus.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\
**Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369/20 "2009-10-28T14:32:23Z")

</div>

> [@WarmNPrickly](#):
>
> In my own experience, since getting the yearly vaccine, I have only had the flu once in 15 years.

But did you previously get the flu regularly before you started getting the shots?

In my anecdotal experience, the only year that I got a shot, I also got the flu (or flu-like symptoms.) But the “flu” never seems to knock me out for more than a day or 2. I’ve never had the weeklong incapacitation I hear about.

I am neither a statistician nor a doctor, but I found interesting the article’s suggestion that _perhaps_ the people who get flu shots are less likely to get - and die from - the flu, for reasons other than the shot itself. Also, in light of so much else I hear and understand about the modern practice and marketing of medicine, I found superficially appealing the discussion of the rush to deliver the shots and meds, and the resistence to blind testing once they are being administered.

Certainly this article ought not make anyone’s mind up one way or another. But if someone wishes to be informed about the issue, they might be able to do worse than to put it on their reading shortlist.

[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-be-wrong-with-the-swine-flu-vaccine/515369.md?page=2)