# What could make a mother murder her child? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021 "2009-02-01T20:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/21 "2009-02-02T17:38:29Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > She’s either insane or on heavy drugs or both. Sane people don’t do things like this, and you can’t reason with someone who does something like this. The only thing you can do is try to figure out what brand of crazy it is and try to learn how to stop it in others. while it may satisfying to explain this away as crazy or drugs, she pled guilty and the plea was accepted by the court. If there was any evidence of mental illness or other mitigating factors like drugs, her defence lawyer certainly would have explored that option before pleading her out. Nor has there been any suggestion in any of the news coverage that I’ve seen that has suggested any mental health issues. Sometimes there are evil people in this world. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/22 "2009-02-02T21:23:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Thirded. I think “incredibly selfish, narcissistic, and unconcerned with others” fits the bill much more than “crazy”. Too often, I think, mental illness is used to explain just out and out selfishness. I think you’re right about that, but I do wonder how far down the path of “unconcerned with others” one has to go to be completely outside the bounds of normal. Seems like there would have to be a line somewhere that divides the selfish from the insane. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/23 "2009-02-02T21:47:53Z")
While perhaps the depths of selfishness there has to be more here. They noted in the article that the age of the child was remarkable. The vast majority of mothers who do this the kids are less than 2 years of age…half less than one year old (at least in Canada). This child was 12. Further, she _strangled_ the child. That is a pretty personal way to kill someone I would think. There are lots of ways of off someone and that is a pretty hands-on approach. More than just wanting the child out of the way this tells me she must have hated the child. It amazes me that the mother only got 2nd degree murder for this. I would think the facts as we know them (boyfriend gave her a choice…she made that choice) by definition makes it pre-meditated murder. Of course IANAL and especially not up on Canadian law. She got life in prison anyway but still… ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/24 "2009-02-02T22:09:12Z")
My guess would be a history of conflict and violence before this. Supposedly there was a fight between them shortly beforehand. It was possibly less a case of ‘doing it for her boyfriend’ and more a ‘you ruined my life’ outburst of rage, ie the poor kid got used as a symbol for where her life was at that point. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/25 "2009-02-02T23:03:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe this happens very very often. A woman decides that the only way to keep her b/f is to kill her child, it’s common and legal and called abortion. Well, you are half right. Along with mental illness, a common thread running through many maternal filicide cases is the wish to keep a boyfriend or husband (whether the ultimatum is actually presented to them or in their heads). Whatever notions people have of gentler genders, I think the sad truth is that people are often as brutal as their biology or circumstances allow– so a man can abuse and murder his 100 lb girlfriend, and a woman can abuse and murder her 20 lb child. Not sure what that has to do with abortion, though, unless a woman is also concerned with her personal safety (as I’m sure you know, [homicide](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/411212) is the leading cause of death for pregnant women– so they’re not only taking control of their reproductive freedom, they’re saving their own lives!). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/26 "2009-02-03T01:49:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It amazes me that the mother only got 2nd degree murder for this. I would think the facts as we know them (boyfriend gave her a choice…she made that choice) by definition makes it pre-meditated murder. Of course IANAL and especially not up on Canadian law. She got life in prison anyway but still… The problem is that just because the boyfriend gave her an ultimatum, that doesn’t mean murder. He may have thought he was telling her to hand the daughter over to her ex, the father of the child. She apparently thought of that as an option. The question is, at what point did she decide to kill the daughter? According to the news reports, they were alone for several hours before the murder. At what point did she decide? And how does the Crown prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she did plan it in advance, without the Crown having any witnesses who could testify about the events? As well, she got a life sentence, which is the sentence for both first and second degree murder. The only difference between the two is the period of parole ineligibility. For first degree murder, it’s 25 years; for second degree, it’s a minimum of 10 years, but the judge can up it. That’s exactly what the judge did here, giving a parole ineligibility of 20 years. So the net difference in the sentence in this case between first and second degree murder is a five year parole ineligibility. Set against that is the trauma for the community. The child’s father and parents are in that community, and from the news reports, even the sentencing process was pretty stressful for them. A trial lasting several weeks would be even more stressful, with no guarantee of a conviction on first degree. That’s the kind of factor the Crown will consider in deciding whether to accept a plea agreement. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/27 "2009-02-03T02:30:18Z")
**TWEEEET!!** Topics surrounding the attitudes of women undergoing abortions are legitimate in this Forum. However, that is not the topic that the OP sought to discuss. **Kanicbird** has already been admonished to drop that line of discussion in this thread. Responding to a poster who is under something of a gag order is not really appropriate. Anyone is welcome to open a new thread to discuss that topic, but it is off limits in this thread–as are any comments directed toward **Kanicbird** ’s first post. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/28 "2009-02-03T06:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cat Fight** : Whatever notions people have of gentler genders, I think the sad truth is that people are often as brutal as their biology or circumstances allow… I don’t think that one gender is particularly more gentle than the other. And I’m not sure that “often” is a good measure. But keep in mind that post natal depression and post natal psychosis (which might be the reason a mother would kill her child), is also biological and circumstantial. I don’t think a lot of very intelligent people realize the extent to which our hormones and other body chemicals make us who we are. We don’t control them. They control us. When they change, we change. I knew very well a kind and intelligent woman – utterly charming. Her children spent several months living with their paternal grandparents. I wasn’t told why until I was an adult. She developed a post natal psychosis and had become a threat to her children. Later they were returned to her and her husband and she absolutely adored them. She made a full recovery, I assume. I never saw any signs of psychosis from her. If it could happen to her, it could happen to _any_ woman. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/29 "2009-02-03T10:46:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Nor has there been any suggestion in any of the news coverage that I’ve seen that has suggested any mental health issues. Did you miss the part where she strangled her own child? I would count that under symptoms of a mental health issue, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/30 "2009-02-03T11:06:41Z")
I’m familiar with the facts of the case, thanks. Are you saying that just knowing that one fact is sufficient to determine her mental health? What psychological syndrome or mental illness are you identifying? Courts don’t accept guilty pleas to such serious crimes lightly - they want to be sure that the person understands the consequences and is in fact guilty. If there were any evidence to support a concern about the woman’s mental health, I think the court would have gone into that issue before accepting the plea. The fact that the court accepted the plea suggests to me that there was no evidence that she suffered from a mental health issue sufficient to meet the legal test for not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/31 "2009-02-03T11:10:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m familiar with the facts of the case, thanks. Are you saying that just knowing that one fact is sufficient to determine her mental health? What psychological syndrome or mental illness are you identifying? > > Courts don’t accept guilty pleas to such serious crimes lightly - they want to be sure that the person understands the consequences and is in fact guilty. If there were any evidence to support a concern about the woman’s mental health, I think the court would have gone into that issue before accepting the plea. The fact that the court accepted the plea suggests to me that there was no evidence that she suffered from a mental health issue sufficient to meet the legal test for not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder. I’m not making a case for an insanity plea. I just think that strangling your daughter so you can keep your scumbag boyfriend is pretty damned crazy. YMMV, though. And for what it’s worth, I agree that sometimes there is just evil in the world, but I consider this particular level of evil to be a kind of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/32 "2009-02-03T11:26:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Thirded. I think “incredibly selfish, narcissistic, and unconcerned with others” fits the bill much more than “crazy”. Too often, I think, mental illness is used to explain just out and out selfishness. I don’t think that’s quite right. My first thought when I saw this thread was post-partum depression or psychosis, but I don’t think that’s a factor, since her daughter was 12 years old. I think her mother may have been an extreme form of something that seems to be fairly common – women who believe that they are nothing without a man and who believe they can’t function without a man in their lives. They’re so terrified of being alone they’ll latch onto anything passing for male and do anything to keep him. Granted it usually doesn’t go as far as killing their child, but when I volunteered at an animal shelter I saw some animals which were put up for adoption when their owners were by the men it their lives it was either the cat (or dog) or them. I’d attribute the woman in the OP’s actions to fear, not selfishness. She may have been terrified of being without a man and convinced she was worthless and would never get another one. Rather than being unconcerned with others, I’d say she was excessively concerned with the opinion of one other, her boyfriend. This brings up another question, but I’ll put that in a separate thread. By the way, I’m not trying to excuse her actions, just throw out an opinion I haven’t seen in this thread yet. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/33 "2009-02-03T12:04:05Z")
If I had to guess, I’d say [antisocial personality disorder](http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/294307-overview). Most people refer to them as psycho/sociopaths. Ever heard this one? > [@](#): > > A young girl is at her mother’s funeral. There she meets and spends time talking to a young man she had never seen before. She’s very attracted, but he leaves without her knowing and she has no way to contact him. A few days after, she kills her sister. Why? It’s a sketchy diagnosis, and it doesn’t make you **legally** insane. You know what you’re doing, you just don’t care. The daughter’s age has nothing to do with it. It wouldn’t matter to her. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/34 "2009-02-03T15:12:28Z")
Remember Susan Smith? She was not crazy but cold and calculated (it was a black guy) lying and stroy telling complete with fake tears on national television. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/35 "2009-02-03T17:35:01Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Remember Susan Smith? She was not crazy but cold and calculated (it was a black guy) lying and stroy telling complete with fake tears on national television. Isn’t that symptomatic of a sociopathic disorder, though? Being “cold and calculated” doesn’t mean “not insane,” if anything, it’s a scarier kind of insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Atomicflea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Atomicflea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomicflea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/36 "2009-02-03T18:19:54Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Isn’t that symptomatic of a sociopathic disorder, though? Being “cold and calculated” doesn’t mean “not insane,” if anything, it’s a scarier kind of insanity. Yup. > [@](#): > > Antisocial personality disorder: Individuals with antisocial personality disorder display a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others and the rules of society. Onset must occur by age 15 years and includes the following features: > Repeated violations of the law > Pervasive lying and deception > Physical aggressiveness > Reckless disregard for safety of self or others > Consistent irresponsibility in work and family environments > Lack of remorse ---
**Author:** ![socpro69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@socpro69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/socpro69)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/37 "2009-02-03T19:19:29Z")
I would like to have thought that things just spiralled out of control once she had phoned her boyfriend and claimed Karissa had jumped out of the car and run away. The prosecutor’s assertion that she was [jovial](http://www.southshorenow.ca/archives/2009/020309/news/index033.php) when she described the events to undercover officers adds a whole other dimension. I am amazed by how together her [father](http://www.cbc.ca/newsatsixns/media/20090130paulboudreau.ram) has remained through all this. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/38 "2009-02-03T21:55:39Z")
There are plenty of moms out there who killed their children who do not fit any classic mental illness diagnosis, either Axis I or Axis II. At worst, some have been diagnosed with antisocial personality traits, but didn’t meet enough criteria to be classified as having a disorder. Nor were these women necessarily under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Plenty of people are capable of making poor choices/have bad impulse control which results in devastatingly bad outcomes without _having_ to be mentally ill. A forensic psychiatrist friend of mine who specializes in criminal violence and has testified in a number of parent/child murder cases puts it this way: Most violence is done by people who are not mentally ill, but rather by people who have characteristics that often make them unpleasant personalities (aka assholes). That’s why most violent acts need to be addressed by the criminal justice system, not the mental health system. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/39 "2009-02-03T21:59:22Z")
As Attorney Andrew Vachss, a specialist in the sexual abuse of children, put it: We have to stop confusing sickening behavior with sick behavior. Some (Many?) people who have sickening personalities and commit sickening acts are not mentally sick. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021/40 "2009-02-03T22:05:34Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I don’t think that’s quite right. My first thought when I saw this thread was post-partum depression or psychosis, but I don’t think that’s a factor, since her daughter was 12 years old. > > I think her mother may have been an extreme form of something that seems to be fairly common – women who believe that they are nothing without a man and who believe they can’t function without a man in their lives. They’re so terrified of being alone they’ll latch onto anything passing for male and do anything to keep him. Granted it usually doesn’t go as far as killing their child, but when I volunteered at an animal shelter I saw some animals which were put up for adoption when their owners were by the men it their lives it was either the cat (or dog) or them. > > I’d attribute the woman in the OP’s actions to fear, not selfishness. She may have been terrified of being without a man and convinced she was worthless and would never get another one. Rather than being unconcerned with others, I’d say she was excessively concerned with the opinion of one other, her boyfriend. This brings up another question, but I’ll put that in a separate thread. > > By the way, I’m not trying to excuse her actions, just throw out an opinion I haven’t seen in this thread yet. When I originally posted, I didn’t want to open up the entire “Isn’t codependency just an outward reflection of extreme selfishness” debate. But I think you’re right, she is seriously co-dependent. But, again, I can’t buy into the fact that that means she’s “mentally ill.” It’s gotten to the point where we can throw out all kinds of words “sociopath”, “personality disorder”, “disturbed”, to describe pretty much every issue a person can have. But I still don’t think her psychological makeup excuses her actions either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-make-a-mother-murder-her-child/484021.md?page=3)