# What could the U.S. do to make the PRC government lose face so hard it is in danger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604 "2012-01-15T15:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/21 "2012-01-16T09:03:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Continue the gigantic and fast growth of Christanity in China. Once the hearts of the people change there shall be societal and political change as a natural outgrowth. Because that worked [so well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) in 1850. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/22 "2012-01-16T09:33:07Z")
Flood them with modern-day opium. Y’know… porn. ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/23 "2012-01-16T10:02:19Z")
What, so we end up having to teach “the porn wars” in our history classes ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/24 "2012-01-16T15:59:10Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Basic assumption is flawed. The Chinese government does not really give a fuck what foreign views are. But, I was talking about domestic opinion only, that is, the PRC government “losing face” in the eyes of its own people. Possibly because of something flubbed in foreign relations, possibly something else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/25 "2012-01-16T16:01:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Continue the gigantic and fast growth of Christanity in China. Once the hearts of the people change there shall be societal and political change as a natural outgrowth. [Only about 1% of the population is Christian.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Demographics_and_geography) You don’t seriously expect to live to see that figure change, do you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/26 "2012-01-16T16:03:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Flood them with modern-day opium. > Y’know… porn. To the point where **everybody** in China knows [Rule 34!](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleThirtyFour)😃 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/27 "2012-01-16T21:04:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, I was talking about domestic opinion only, that is, the PRC government “losing face” in the eyes of its own people. Possibly because of something flubbed in foreign relations, possibly something else. The most basic modern “mandate of heaven” is that the Party allows the masses to “get rich”, and the “masses” doesn’t question the right of the Party to govern in a pretty hands off manner. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/28 "2012-01-16T21:46:28Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > The most basic modern “mandate of heaven” is that the Party allows the masses to “get rich”, and the “masses” doesn’t question the right of the Party to govern in a pretty hands off manner. Right, but **xtisme** (post #8) is of the opinion they can’t keep that up much longer. I’m unclear on why. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/29 "2012-01-17T00:53:45Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Because that worked [so well](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) in 1850. Is this the same Taipings who abolished foot-binding, polygamy, and tried to modernize China? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Only about 1% of the population is Christian.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_China#Demographics_and_geography) You don’t seriously expect to live to see that figure change, do you? Look at Korea, in about a hundred years, Korea is now 25% Christian (the South I mean). Even within a few decades after the coming of missionaries, Pyonyang was called the “Jerusalem of the East”. In addition statistic are unreliable due to the Communist regime and those Chinese who are Christian are concentrated in the urban, wealthy coastal provinces-they represent much like the Christians in urban areas during the days of the Roman Empire a vanguard. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/30 "2012-01-17T01:28:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is this the same Taipings who abolished foot-binding, polygamy, and tried to modernize China? That would be them. Ending with 20 million deaths, a failed revolution, and increased European hegemony over the Middle Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/31 "2012-01-17T01:49:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is this the same Taipings who abolished foot-binding, polygamy, and tried to modernize China? And caused the bloodiest war anywhere in the 19th Century, killing more than 20 million. And thought their leader was Jesus’ younger brother. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/32 "2012-01-17T03:01:19Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > That would be them. Ending with 20 million deaths, a failed revolution, and increased European hegemony over the Middle Kingdom. Actually the Europeans supported the Qing Dynasty over the Taipings. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And caused the bloodiest war anywhere in the 19th Century, killing more than 20 million. And thought their leader was Jesus’ younger brother. And most of those deaths were from famines and disease caused indirectly by the war rather than the fighting itself. And at least one book argued Hong was speaking figuratively, in the sense that all Christians are brothers not expounding the blasphemous doctrine that he was the second son of God. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/33 "2012-01-17T03:40:21Z")
Well, anyway, if the PRC government is alarmed enough to suppress something like the Falun Gong, it’s not going to allow any Christianity-based political movement to emerge. Or any high-level Christian evangelizing or anything. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/34 "2012-01-17T03:45:07Z")
Qin - do you know how to spin. I mean, you are factually correct, the fighting across about half of China’s landmass is what directly caused the famine that killed more than the actual fighting. Not sure if that is any consolation to the dead. The overwhelmning body of evidence from the time is that Hong did expound the blashpemous doctrine that he was the second son of God. You’re going to have to do better than “at least one book argued…” Net result was the same, foreigners started carving up China. The Taiping Rebellion weakened the Qing, who were then in no position to effectively repel the foreigners. Eg, the Opium Wars settled that. The foreign exception was the US, who was too weak at the time to project the force required and thus rhetorically came down on China’s side. One could make the case that the Taiping Rebellion resulted in mass opium addiction in China, the rise of the warlords, and set the stage for the KMT-Communist civil war. Pretty impressive for the second son of god. And are you by chance referring to the “underground” Christians today? You do realize that whilst some are probably what we could agree on as Christians in some recognizeable form, but the majority are some wierd cult that is Christian in name only and would make you run screaming apostates and blasphemous. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/35 "2012-01-17T05:34:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Actually the Europeans supported the Qing Dynasty over the Taipings. Yes they did, because they knew it would result in the Qing Dynasty surviving but in a weakened state, ripe for the taking. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/36 "2012-01-17T19:48:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Continue the gigantic and fast growth of Christanity in China. Once the hearts of the people change there shall be societal and political change as a natural outgrowth. It’s posts like this that make people (myself included) seriously question whether you’re a troll. Now that the ridiculous digression on this non-issue is over, I’m interested to hear **Xtisme’s** views on why the economic growth of China won’t continue, and thus their modern mandate will fail. A friend of mine who lives in China said he was of the view that the low hanging fruit had been picked, so to speak, and that economic growth had to slow. Also as China continues to develop it’s in danger of no longer being the outsourcing destination of choice - the PRC is going to get stuck between the rock of an economy comprised largely of making exportable stuff for the west and the hard place of a populace that is eventually going to demand wages that aren’t satisfied by that economy. I think we’re talking a while yet, but that point is looming on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/37 "2012-01-17T19:56:29Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Also as China continues to develop it’s in danger of no longer being the outsourcing destination of choice . . . Who’s next, then? India? Brazil? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/38 "2012-01-17T19:57:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Well, why isn’t it? What exactly is wrong with their current economic model? Are you thinking of natural-resource limitations? [/QUOTE] Because you can’t have a perpetual motion machine. If you predicate your entire system on the basic assumption that you will always grow and expand then, and you hinge your control of your (disgruntled) population on the premise that you will be ever able to expand and increase their standards of living then your system is resting on a house of cards that one or two nasty recessions will bring down. China’s economic model rests on the premise that the rest of the world will always be willing to take unfavorable (to them) trade imbalances with China and continue to turn a blind eye to the games that China is playing with their currency…and that China will always be able to make all those cheap goods and services at the same rate and increasing amounts forever. It’s not likely to happen, since some of it is mutually exclusive (i.e. you can’t keep masses of cheap labor AND have ever rising standards of living). -XT ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/39 "2012-01-18T18:50:34Z")
If you step on a snake, it WILL bite you. The best strategy for the US is to maximize our own human resource, so we can be resilient, and otherwise play it cool internationally. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604/40 "2012-01-18T20:09:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who’s next, then? India? Brazil? I think both of those are now in a position where they can’t compete with China race to the bottom when it comes to wage demands. There’s plenty of cheap labour in Africa though… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-could-the-u-s-do-to-make-the-prc-government-lose-face-so-hard-it-is-in-danger/609604.md?page=3)