# What countries have never had leaders who held high military rank (e.g. general/flag officers)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876 "2015-02-28T19:16:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/1 "2015-02-28T19:16:17Z")
I was just wondering: how many countries have never had a political leader who has held high military rank: general or flag rank? By “political leader” I mean actual leader, not ceremonial, so a Prime Minister in a parliamentary system, a President in a presidential system, a monarch in a system where the monarch had an actual effective political role, would all be leaders. Queen Elizabeth II wouldn’t count as a leader for this purpose, even though she’s the Commander-in-Chief of the military in several different countries. Using this test, the US, the UK and France, for example, would not be included, since all of them have had generals as their President/Prime Minister at least once (e.g. Washington; Wellington; de Gaulle). Canada would meet the test, since none of the Prime Ministers have held rank much above lieutenant. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/2 "2015-02-28T19:48:05Z")
Well, a few of the Canadian Prime Ministers had been militia colonels, but, you’re right, still not flag officers. But how are you defining “country” here? I mean, I don’t think any German Chancellor has had general rank since Kurt von Schleicher, the last Weimar Chancellor, who left office in 1933. Is that the same “Germany” as today’s Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/3 "2015-02-28T20:49:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I was just wondering: how many countries have never had a political leader who has held high military rank: general or flag rank? It would be my guess that this is true for the vast majority of all countries, but one would have to carefully check. For starters, what about Austria, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand? ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/4 "2015-02-28T21:18:29Z")
The USSR. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/5 "2015-02-28T21:23:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I was just wondering: how many countries have never had a political leader who has held high military rank: general or flag rank? > Using this test, the US, the UK and France, for example, would not be included, since all of them have had generals as their President/Prime Minister at least once (e.g. Washington; Wellington; de Gaulle). Well, it’s hardly a fair test now, is it? How many countries have been around as long as the USA or UK? Of course since the USA elected Ike, that’s fairly recent. And how would you count Churchill? His highest rank was iirc only LtCol, but he was also First Lord of the Admiralty. Let’s count just since 1900, and in that case the UK qualifies, unless you count First Lord of the Admiralty as a “military” rank, which technically it isnt. I think many nations thus qualify, such as I think Denmark ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/6 "2015-02-28T22:03:25Z")
Of the 28 prime ministers Australian 8 have served in the armed services. 3 did not see active service and one was in the medical corps. Two (Hughes & Bruce) were in the British rather than Australian army. • Billy Hughes – volunteer battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. • Stanley Bruce – captain in the British Army in World War I • Sir Earle Page – Officer in the Australian Army Medical Corp in World War I. • Harold Holt – Enlisted in the Army in 1940 while a Member of Parliament and served as a gunner • John McEwen – Enlisted in the Army in 1918, was awaiting embarkation when the armistice was declared. • John Gorton – fighter pilot with the rank of Flight Lieutenant in the Royal Australian Air Force • William McMahon – Joined the Army in 1940, but due to deafness was confined to staff work • Gough Whitlam – Served in World War II in the RAAF as a navigator, reached rank of Flight Lieutenant. Active military service appears more commonly in the CVs of the Governor-Generals. The current GG is Peter Cosgrove who lead the INTERFET peacekeeping mission into East Timor in 1999. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/7 "2015-02-28T22:20:52Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The USSR. Not true. Brezhnev was political commissar of the 4th Ukrainian Front, which would put his rank around \*\*\*\* General or maybe Field Marshal. Voroshilov was a Marshal. etc ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/8 "2015-02-28T22:23:49Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Of the 28 prime ministers Australian 8 have served in the armed services. 3 did not see active service and one was in the medical corps. Two (Hughes & Bruce) were in the British rather than Australian army. > • Billy Hughes – volunteer battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. > • Stanley Bruce – captain in the British Army in World War I > • Sir Earle Page – Officer in the Australian Army Medical Corp in World War I. > • Harold Holt – Enlisted in the Army in 1940 while a Member of Parliament and served as a gunner > • John McEwen – Enlisted in the Army in 1918, was awaiting embarkation when the armistice was declared. > • John Gorton – fighter pilot with the rank of Flight Lieutenant in the Royal Australian Air Force > • William McMahon – Joined the Army in 1940, but due to deafness was confined to staff work > • Gough Whitlam – Served in World War II in the RAAF as a navigator, reached rank of Flight Lieutenant. > > Active military service appears more commonly in the CVs of the Governor-Generals. The current GG is Peter Cosgrove who lead the INTERFET peacekeeping mission into East Timor in 1999. But none were of General rank, as the Op specified. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/9 "2015-02-28T22:26:45Z")
Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/10 "2015-02-28T22:36:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not true. > > Brezhnev was political commissar of the 4th Ukrainian Front, which would put his rank around \*\*\*\* General or maybe Field Marshal. > > Voroshilov was a Marshal. > > etc I was consciously omitting Commissars, who were political appointees, and Voroshilov was not a leader as in national chief executive- that position was occupied by Stalin and Stalin alone from about 1928 until his 1953 death. However, now that I think about it, _Stalin_ was a regular Army general (of questionable ability) during the Russian Civil War and the USSR v Poland War, so I spoke too hastily. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/11 "2015-02-28T22:39:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, it’s hardly a fair test now, is it? How many countries have been around as long as the USA or UK? Plenty: France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Turkey, China, Japan, Thailand, Ethiopia, and Russia (internationally. the Russian Federation is the successor to the USSR, which was the successor to the Russian Empire). Then there’s all of the South American and Central American countries since early in the 19th century, and Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/12 "2015-02-28T22:41:58Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The USSR. Stalin was a Marshall of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/13 "2015-02-28T23:18:09Z")
India since the Brits left? Also my brain is saying some of the African countries after colonial rule ended. They either seemed to go for military or educated men on about a 50/50 basis but that’s just from memory/perception. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/14 "2015-02-28T23:23:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But how are you defining “country” here? I mean, I don’t think any German Chancellor has had general rank since Kurt von Schleicher, the last Weimar Chancellor, who left office in 1933. Is that the same “Germany” as today’s Germany? I would say “Yes” using the rules of international recognition of successor states. Germany dates back to the foundation of the German Empire in 1870. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/15 "2015-02-28T23:31:58Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > For starters, what about Austria, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand? Michael Collins was Chairman of the Irish Provisional Government and Commander-in-Chief of the Free State forces during the Irish Civil War so I think Ireland is out. > **[Michael Collins (Irish leader)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_%28Irish_leader%29)** > > Michael Collins (Irish: Mícheál Ó Coileáin; 16 October 1890 – 22 August 1922) was an Irish revolutionary, soldier and politician who was a leading figure in the early-20th century struggle for Irish independence. During the War of Independence he was Director of Intelligence of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and a government minister of the self-declared Irish Republic. He was then Chairman of the Provisional Government of the Irish Free State from January 1922 and commander-in-chief of th Co... ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/16 "2015-02-28T23:42:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But none were of General rank, as the Op specified. 😕 > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I was just wondering: how many countries have never had a political leader who has held high military rank: general or flag rank? > [snip] > Canada would meet the test, since none of the Prime Ministers have held rank much above lieutenant. On near identical qualifications to Canada, Australia “would meet the test” as posed in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/17 "2015-02-28T23:46:43Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Stalin was a Marshall of the Soviet Union. See post #10. He was made Marshall in 1943, timing of which might be considered political rather than earned. However, IIRC he was a bona fide general during the first several years of the USSR ca.1918&ff, although perhaps not a very good one. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/18 "2015-03-01T02:53:12Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > 😕 > > On near identical qualifications to Canada, Australia “would meet the test” as posed in the OP. I think so, yes. None of the examples you gave were of flag rank, same as Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/19 "2015-03-01T03:05:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I would say “Yes” using the rules of international recognition of successor states. Germany dates back to the foundation of the German Empire in 1870. So how far back does the United Kingdom go? Act of Union in 1800? Act of Union in 1707? Glorious Revolution of 1688? Norman Conquest of 1066? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876/20 "2015-03-01T06:05:41Z")
Since Wellington was PM in the 1830’s, that’s as far back as I think we need to go for this inquiry. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-countries-have-never-had-leaders-who-held-high-military-rank-e-g-general-flag-officers/713876.md?page=2)