# What counts as a 'sin'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991 "2011-12-13T03:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/41 "2011-12-24T14:18:02Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Then how do you explain all the evil in the world? Ducks and ganders can be observed during breeding season raping females in violent, feather-flying attacks that occasionally result in the female’s death by drowning. Bonobo monkeys frequently masturbate and occasionally engage very young members of the tribe in sexual activity. Crows and magpies are notorious thieves. Domestic and wild cats, dogs, and cattle have been known to overeat until they suffer from bloat, which can have deadly consequences. Horses, goats, and other herd animals often live in harems, with dominant males forcibly acquiring desirable females from weaker males. Many animals will attack and kill non-threatening young and weak members of the same species, even when resources are plentiful. Non-human animals frequently violate the Ten Commandments and other human social norms, yet the word “evil” does not apply. And yet the same “god” created all living creatures, no? Why would any god create a planet full of creatures predisposed to violate his commandments? In mentally and emotionally stable human animals, self-destructive, anti-social, and criminal behavior is a method of obtaining goods or gratification while skipping the step of conforming to restrictive laws. You may call acts you find distasteful or alarming “evil”, but an introductory course in ethology will demonstrate that living creatures which circumvent religious prescriptions, laws, and other social mores are innovators which receive a coveted reward far sooner than those which observe arbitrary restrictions. Beyond this, the concepts of evil and sin are neither static nor uniform among humans, but vary according to culture and experience. What is abhorrent to your religious sensibilities may be tolerated or even encouraged in other cultures. > [@Theophane](#): > > Atheist morality is all about pointing out the sins of others while insisting that sin doesn’t apply to you. _Sin_ doesn’t apply to you, either. Behaviors are anti-social, or they are consistent with social norms endemic to a regional or cultural environment. Atheist morality is akin to humanist ideals unrelated to a particular myth. However, a demonstration of non-religious morality might necessitate pointing out how religious adherents fall shy of complying with the very religious policies they espouse. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/42 "2011-12-24T14:20:58Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Ducks and ganders can be observed during breeding season raping females in violent, feather-flying attacks that occasionally result in the female’s death by drowning. Bonobo monkeys frequently masturbate and occasionally engage very young members of the tribe in sexual activity. Crows and magpies are notorious thieves. Domestic and wild cats, dogs, and cattle have been known to overeat until they suffer from bloat, which can have deadly consequences. Horses, goats, and other herd animals often live in harems, with dominant males forcibly acquiring desirable females from weaker males. Many animals will attack and kill non-threatening young and weak members of the same species, even when resources are plentiful. Non-human animals frequently violate the Ten Commandments and other human social norms, yet the word “evil” does not apply. And yet the same “god” created all living creatures, no? Why would any god create a planet full of creatures predisposed to violate his commandments? > > In mentally and emotionally stable human animals, self-destructive, anti-social, and criminal behavior is a method of obtaining goods or gratification while skipping the step of conforming to restrictive laws. You may call acts you find distasteful or alarming “evil”, but an introductory course in ethology will demonstrate that living creatures which circumvent religious prescriptions, laws, and other social mores are innovators which receive a coveted reward far sooner than those which observe arbitrary restrictions. Beyond this, the concepts of evil and sin are neither static nor uniform among humans, but vary according to culture and experience. What is abhorrent to your religious sensibilities may be tolerated or even encouraged in other cultures. > > _Sin_ doesn’t apply to you, either. Behaviors are anti-social, or they are consistent with social norms endemic to a regional or cultural environment. > > Atheist morality is akin to humanist ideals unrelated to a particular myth. However, a demonstration of non-religious morality might necessitate pointing out how religious adherents fall shy of complying with the very religious policies they espouse. Non-religoius morality is basedf on nothing. Religious morality has a framework. It’s a code. It’s a set of rules. Even if people violate their own religious rules, it’s still something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/43 "2011-12-24T14:37:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Atheist morality is all about pointing out the sins of others while insisting that sin doesn’t apply to you. No, that has nothing to do with “atheist morality”. There isn’t any such thing as “atheist morality”. Being an atheist tends to make you more moral because you lack the corrupting effects of religion, but in itself atheism has nothing to say on morality. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods; there’s nothing about morality in that. > [@Theophane](#): > > Non-religoius morality is basedf on nothing. Nonsense. It’s based on human instinct, collective enlightened self interest, and thousands of years of history about what works and what doesn’t. > [@Theophane](#): > > Religious morality has a framework. It’s a code. It’s a set of rules. Even if people violate their own religious rules, it’s still something. It’s based on rules written by long dead barbarians and the whim of anyone who convinces themselves that their god wants them to do something. Nor is it “a set of rules”; it’s a _whole bunch_ of sets of rules, mostly mutually contradictory. Your own religion isn’t the only one with rules. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/44 "2011-12-24T14:56:01Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Non-religoius morality is basedf on nothing. Religious morality has a framework. It’s a code. It’s a set of rules. Even if people violate their own religious rules, it’s still something. Those who follow violate their own religious rules are of zero concern to society at large unless or until the violators attempt to push said rules on others. At that point, the “sinner” becomes a farce and fair game. ([Refer to Wickipedia’s guide to religious scandals here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_scandals)) Non-religious morality is based on understanding and adhering to a set of cultural, regional, or situational expectations. Perhaps those who completely lack empathy and mental acuity require the threat of eternal damnation in order to behave themselves, but the large majority of typically developing human beings are capable of participating in and contributing to a healthy society by way of instinctive and learned behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/45 "2011-12-24T15:10:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Nonsense. It’s based on human instinct, collective enlightened self interest, and thousands of years of history about what works and what doesn’t. Human instinct is the source of everything atheism seeks to oppose, did you realize that? Collective enlightened self-interest? You’re overselling. How can self-interest be collective? And what does it have do with enlightenment? Just say Ayn Rand. Just say it’s based on Randian principles and be done with it. Or better yet, tell me it’s basically covert Luciferianism. That I would believe. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/46 "2011-12-24T15:14:02Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Those who follow violate their own religious rules are of zero concern to society at large unless or until the violators attempt to push said rules on others. At that point, the “sinner” becomes a farce and fair game. ([Refer to Wickipedia’s guide to religious scandals here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religious_scandals)) > > Non-religious morality is based on understanding and adhering to a set of cultural, regional, or situational expectations. Perhaps those who completely lack empathy and mental acuity require the threat of eternal damnation in order to behave themselves, but the large majority of typically developing human beings are capable of participating in and contributing to a healthy society by way of instinctive and learned behavior. Is that why most people are well-behaved and nonviolent? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/47 "2011-12-24T15:20:17Z")
> [@](#): > > There isn’t any such thing as “atheist morality”. There is, but only as it applies to other people. When it does exist, it’s cribbed off of Judeo-Christian morality. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/48 "2011-12-24T15:24:36Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Human instinct is the source of everything atheism seeks to oppose, did you realize that? Atheism doesn’t seek to oppose anything; as I said, atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. And instinct is the source of a great many good things; subjugated people who fight for freedom despite generations of being taught to submit are doing so because of instinct overriding the lies they have been fed. Compassion, friendship, fairness; all heavily involve instinct. > [@Theophane](#): > > Collective enlightened self-interest? You’re overselling. How can self-interest be collective? Easy; when a bunch of people all decide that something is in all of their self interests. Like outlawing theft and murder. > [@Theophane](#): > > And what does it have do with enlightenment? Just say Ayn Rand. Just say it’s based on Randian principles and be done with it. Those are predatory evil, and ultimately self destructive belief systems. The opposite of enlightened. And “enlightened self interest” means self interest that isn’t stupid & short sighted. > [@Theophane](#): > > Or better yet, tell me it’s basically covert Luciferianism. That I would believe. There’s no Lucifer any more than there are gods. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/49 "2011-12-24T15:30:35Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Is that why most people are well-behaved and nonviolent? No, childhood socialization and the existence of cops explains that. > [@Theophane](#): > > There is, but only as it applies to other people. When it does exist, it’s cribbed off of Judeo-Christian morality. Nonsense; “Judeo-Christian morality” pretty much boils down to “hate all pleasure that is not from hurting and oppressing others” and “convert or destroy everyone who is not of the One True Faith”. Everything else that believers like to label as so-called Christian morality has nothing in particular to do with the religion, and quite often is older than Christianity or imposed from outside. Christianity is monstrously evil, not a source of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/50 "2011-12-24T15:39:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, childhood socialization and the existence of cops explains that. > > Nonsense; “Judeo-Christian morality” pretty much boils down to “hate all pleasure that is not from hurting and oppressing others” and “convert or destroy everyone who is not of the One True Faith”. Everything else that believers like to label as so-called Christian morality has nothing in particular to do with the religion, and quite often is older than Christianity or imposed from outside. > > Christianity is monstrously evil, not a source of morality. If there is no ultimate moral authority, how can anything be evil? If there is no good or evil in a godless universe, how can you critcize anything or anyone as evil? Moral relativity means no one is allowed to define good or evil. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/51 "2011-12-24T15:48:42Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If there is no ultimate moral authority, how can anything be evil? By being malignant, destructive and/or predatory; like Christianity and religion in general. That’s a better way of defining evil than according to the whim of a nonexistent and uncommunicative mythological being with a reputation for torture and mass murder. Christianity (and religion in general) is the enemy of humanity the way smallpox is the enemy of humanity; if that isn’t “evil” it’ll do until a better example comes along. > [@Theophane](#): > > If there is no good or evil in a godless universe, how can you critcize anything or anyone as evil? God is irrelevant to morality; he doesn’t exist, and even if he did he doesn’t communicate and his opinion doesn’t make something moral or not. Nor is there any reason to believe that if gods existed that they would be even as moral as human beings are, much less superior. Certainly they are typically portrayed as anything but moral, including your incredibly nasty Christian demon-god. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/52 "2011-12-24T15:56:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > By being malignant, destructive and/or predatory; like Christianity and religion in general. That’s a better way of defining evil than according to the whim of a nonexistent and uncommunicative mythological being with a reputation for torture and mass murder. Christianity (and religion in general) is the enemy of humanity the way smallpox is the enemy of humanity; if that isn’t “evil” it’ll do until a better example comes along. Subjective morality and subjective moral definitions are useless. > [@](#): > > God is irrelevant to morality; he doesn’t exist, and even if he did he doesn’t communicate and his opinion doesn’t make something moral or not. Nor is there any reason to believe that if gods existed that they would be even as moral as human beings are, much less superior. Certainly they are typically portrayed as anything but moral, including your incredibly nasty Christian demon-god. A nasty Christian demon-god … who doesn’t exist? You can’t think straight with all that rage and hatred inside you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/53 "2011-12-24T16:00:26Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Subjective morality and subjective moral definitions are useless. Hardly, they are actually workable. Unlike some so-called “absolute” morality based on a nonexistent god that isn’t talking to anyone and shows no evidence of being even as moral as the typical resident of a maximum security prison. > [@Theophane](#): > > A nasty Christian demon-god … who doesn’t exist? > > You can’t think straight with all that rage and hatred inside you. Something doesn’t need to be real to be evil; there are thousands upon thousands of bad guys in fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/54 "2011-12-24T16:05:13Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Is that why most people are well-behaved and nonviolent? This statement is debatable. “Most people” by your definition apparently applies to those who share your religious convictions and conduct themselves exactly as you do. Surely you don’t include the morbidly obese and those who sponsor and participate in eating contests (gluttons). And [kathoey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey) and/or persons who form pair bonds with the same sex (homosexuality), are they “well-behaved” by your definition? What about members of the military and those who seek and enforce the death penalty (killers)? Mormons living in plural marriages (adulterers)? How about all the followers of the world’s third largest religion: Hinduism. Are these people well-behaved and non-violent as you define it? Once you eliminate each of the individuals who do not follow Judeo-Christian laws and the individuals who commit atrocities in the name of the Judeo-Christian God, what fraction of the 7 billion remains well-behaved and non-violent? > [@Theophane](#): > > When it does exist, it’s cribbed off of Judeo-Christian morality. If this is your preferred moral framework, how do you explain the atrocities committed by the Christian God and the atrocities committed in the name of Judeo-Christian religion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/55 "2011-12-24T16:12:18Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If there is no ultimate moral authority, how can anything be evil? If there is no good or evil in a godless universe, how can you critcize anything or anyone as evil? > > Moral relativity means no one is allowed to define good or evil. While we are on the subject of definitions, would you mind giving us _your_ definition of “atheism”, just so we know if we are talking about the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/56 "2011-12-24T16:25:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hardly, they are actually workable. Unlike some so-called “absolute” morality based on a nonexistent god that isn’t talking to anyone and shows no evidence of being even as moral as the typical resident of a maximum security prison. > > Something doesn’t need to be real to be evil; there are thousands upon thousands of bad guys in fiction. I know your type. You believe in God, but you hate Him with every fibre of your being. Atheism is just a facade behind which you hide your virulent anti-theism. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/57 "2011-12-24T16:30:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > While we are on the subject of definitions, would you mind giving us _your_ definition of “atheism”, just so we know if we are talking about the same thing? Atheism is a lack belief in God or anything supernatural. Beyond that, it’s anything the atheist needs it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/58 "2011-12-24T16:38:58Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Atheism is a lack belief in God or anything supernatural. No, gods only; atheism is disbelief in gods; you can believe in magic, fairies, goblins & ghosts and still be an atheist as long as you don’t believe in gods. > [@Theophane](#): > > Beyond that, it’s anything the atheist needs it to be. No, again it is only the disbelief in gods. It is nothing more than the disbelief of a particular type of supernatural claim. > [@Theophane](#): > > I know your type. > > You believe in God, but you hate Him with every fibre of your being. Atheism is just a facade behind which you hide your virulent anti-theism. Ha, that’s a classic; the theist who just refuses to believe in atheists. And I’ve never hidden my antitheism. I despise God, I despise religion in general, and if God was real I’d be more interested in finding a way to kill him than follow him. And I’d never worship him or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/59 "2011-12-24T16:44:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, gods only; atheism is disbelief in gods; you can believe in magic, fairies, goblins & ghosts and still be an atheist as long as you don’t believe in gods. Yeah, that’s my point exactly. There is no hard-and-fast definition of the word if everybody gives it their own little tweak. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/60 "2011-12-24T16:55:12Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Atheism is a lack belief in God or anything supernatural. Beyond that, it’s anything the atheist needs it to be. Let’s correct that: It’s more like a lack of belief in _any_ gods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991.md?page=4)