# What counts as a 'sin'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991 "2011-12-13T03:58:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/61 "2011-12-25T00:12:15Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Then how do you explain all the evil in the world? How do you explain all the good in the world? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/62 "2011-12-25T00:19:24Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Yeah, that’s my point exactly. There is no hard-and-fast definition of the word if everybody gives it their own little tweak. Like the word “God”? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/63 "2011-12-25T02:16:39Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > How do you explain all the good in the world? Anything good comes from God. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/64 "2011-12-25T02:27:14Z")
You even _think_ about butt-fucking your neighbor’s dog, you’ve already done it, so hell, they gotcha comin’ and a goin’. And if all “good” comes from God, how do you explain all the killing in “his” name? Sounds like he’s got an embargo on “good”. Sorry, not buyin’ it. Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/65 "2011-12-25T02:35:27Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > You even _think_ about butt-fucking your neighbor’s dog, you’ve already done it No I haven’t! > [@](#): > > so hell, they gotcha comin’ and a goin’. Who? > [@](#): > > And if all “good” comes from God, how do you explain all the killing in “his” name? Human choice. God gives us the opportunity to choose between good and evil. We choose to be violent and depraved. That is how our free will manifests, as the ability to rebel against God. Religion is created and run by sinful men. > [@](#): > > Sounds like he’s got an embargo on “good”. Sorry, not buyin’ it. > > Quasi That is your loss. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/66 "2011-12-25T02:55:28Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Anything good comes from God. A belief that helps demonstrate how fundamentally anti-human Christianity is. It is a religion of hatred, both towards outsiders and towards oneself. Being both human and Christian makes as much sense as being a Jewish Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/67 "2011-12-25T03:55:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A belief that helps demonstrate how fundamentally anti-human Christianity is. It is a religion of hatred, both towards outsiders and towards oneself. Being both human and Christian makes as much sense as being a Jewish Nazi. You really don’t like Christianity, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/68 "2011-12-25T04:17:29Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > You really don’t like Christianity, do you? What was your first clue? Of course I don’t like it. It’s hateful, tyrannical, irrational, highly destructive, cruel, anti-human; it causes immense suffering all over the world and has for centuries. I regard it as probably the single greatest evil in human history. And given that I live in America it’s constantly in my face. If I was given the power to change one thing in human history, eliminating Christianity would be it. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/69 "2011-12-25T04:19:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What was your first clue? > > Of course I don’t like it. It’s hateful, tyrannical, irrational, highly destructive, cruel, anti-human; it causes immense suffering all over the world and has for centuries. I regard it as probably the single greatest evil in human history. And given that I live in America it’s constantly in my face. If I was given the power to change one thing in human history, eliminating Christianity would be it. Wow. That’s some frothing hatred you’ve got there. :eek: Do you know any Christians? Have you ever visited a church and talked with the people there? Have you ever tried to read the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/70 "2011-12-25T05:21:44Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Wow. That’s some frothing hatred you’ve got there. :eek: Says the person who follows a religion that got to where it is by mass slaughter & terror tactics, and has typically held that everyone who disagrees even slightly with it will be tortured forever. That’s frothing hatred; I’m just a bad tempered guy on the internet. > [@Theophane](#): > > Do you know any Christians? Of course, it’s hard to avoid them. > [@Theophane](#): > > Have you ever tried to read the Bible? Oh yes; I used to have a copy where I’d gone through it and underlined all the contradictions and atrocities I could find. It’s pretty vile. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/71 "2011-12-25T14:28:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Says the person who follows a religion that got to where it is by mass slaughter & terror tactics, and has typically held that everyone who disagrees even slightly with it will be tortured forever. That’s frothing hatred; I’m just a bad tempered guy on the internet. > > Of course, it’s hard to avoid them. > > Oh yes; I used to have a copy where I’d gone through it and underlined all the contradictions and atrocities I could find. It’s pretty vile. Did you burn it? Use it for toilet paper? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/72 "2011-12-25T16:16:08Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Wow. That’s some frothing hatred you’ve got there. :eek: It pales, next to your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for humanity or anything human. If we are, by our very nature, evil, then morality is not a choice. By what standard can you judge good or evil if we are not responsible for our moral choices? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/73 "2011-12-25T16:25:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > It pales, next to your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for humanity or anything human. If we are, by our very nature, evil, then morality is not a choice. By what standard can you judge good or evil if we are not responsible for our moral choices? We are responsible for our moral choices. ALWAYS. It’s a constant battle between the natural man (which receives nothing of God) and the new life we have in Christ. The carnal is always at war with the spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![SDMBKL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdmbkl/32/7297_2.png) [@SDMBKL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDMBKL)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/74 "2011-12-26T02:10:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s correct that: It’s more like a lack of belief in _any_ gods. Off-topic, but “any” denotes a singular noun. Therefore, you should say “any god”, just like “any tree” or “any document”. > [@panache45](#): > > How do you explain all the good in the world? Good charity does good. Good people are out there; you just have to know where to look. Kindness is always, indubitably good. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What was your first clue? > > Of course I don’t like it. It’s hateful, tyrannical, irrational, highly destructive, cruel, anti-human; it causes immense suffering all over the world and has for centuries. I regard it as probably the single greatest evil in human history. And given that I live in America it’s constantly in my face. If I was given the power to change one thing in human history, eliminating Christianity would be it. I think you should also reflect that Christianity and Islam have made important contributions to art, science, history, literature, and life. [_Anno Domini_ and _Before Christ_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini) are used to express dates recorded in both historical works and literature. The Julian and Gregorian calendars are using the supposed date of birth of Christ, even though it is unclear about the real birthday of Jesus. You may argue that Christianity is “evil”, but it looks like you are focusing too much on Christianity’s dark side rather than its bright side. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh yes; I used to have a copy where I’d gone through it and underlined all the contradictions and atrocities I could find. It’s pretty vile. Martin Luther is known to find contradictions in the Bible as well. I think that is the reason he posted the 95 theses and founded his own sect, believing that selling/buying indulgences were unnecessary for one’s salvation. > [@panache45](#): > > It pales, next to your foaming-at-the-mouth hatred for humanity or anything human. If we are, by our very nature, evil, then morality is not a choice. By what standard can you judge good or evil if we are not responsible for our moral choices? I have also pondered that question. It’s kind of freaky to think that, if we are by nature “evil” and cannot change to be “good”, then that would mean there is no point for living. I mean, seriously, who in the world will honestly think of himself or herself as “evil”? That is some low-self esteem going on, in my opinion! One may be faulty but not completely “evil” or “immoral”, unless you want to be a super-villain. :rolleyes: > [@Theophane](#): > > We are responsible for our moral choices. ALWAYS. It’s a constant battle between the natural man (which receives nothing of God) and the new life we have in Christ. The carnal is always at war with the spiritual. I think you need to reconsider what you have said or specify what you mean. First you say that we are by nature evil. Now, you say that we are responsible for our moral choices. How can we be responsible for our moral choices if we are inherently evil? Knowledge of good and evil is important here, but unfortunately, according Genesis in the Bible, the god did not want Eve and Adam to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, as if the aforementioned god wants us to remain ignorant. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/75 "2011-12-26T03:06:52Z")
> [@SDMBKL](#): > > I think you should also reflect that Christianity and Islam have made important contributions to art, science, history, literature, and life. [_Anno Domini_ and _Before Christ_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini) are used to express dates recorded in both historical works and literature. The Julian and Gregorian calendars are using the supposed date of birth of Christ, even though it is unclear about the real birthday of Jesus. You may argue that Christianity is “evil”, but it looks like you are focusing too much on Christianity’s dark side rather than its bright side. Because the dark side is overwhelming, and what little good it does could be better done by institutions that aren’t warped by such a massive load of malice, self hate and delusion. ---
**Author:** ![SDMBKL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdmbkl/32/7297_2.png) [@SDMBKL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDMBKL)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/76 "2011-12-26T05:27:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the dark side is overwhelming, and what little good it does could be better done by institutions that aren’t warped by such a massive load of malice, self hate and delusion. I honestly cannot tell if this is fact, your opinion, or plain hate speech against Christianity in general. I don’t think you are against _every single religion_. It seems like you are against Christianity or the Abrahamic religions. If you are referring specifically to Christianity (I recall earlier that you have highlighted contradictions in the Bible), then you are saying that Christianity is a massive load of “malice, self-hate, and delusion”. Specify that for me please. Richard Dawkins, one famous atheist, has written a book called _The God Delusion_. I suppose that your usage of the word “delusion” to describe Christianity means that Christians are deluded to believe in such a god. You describe Christianity as “a massive load of malice”. I believe you are referring to the holy wars fought in the Crusades during the Middle Ages or the religious persecutions between Catholics and Protestants during Tudor England? Finally, you use the term, “self-hate”. I think you are talking about the concept of sin. As I become more aware of the meaning of sin, I think the concept of sin and the perception of having sinned are closely tied to hating oneself for committing that sin in the first place – hating oneself that one is a sinner – hating oneself that one has committed sin – hating oneself that one cannot change to avoid sin for a lifetime – hating oneself to be faulty – essentially, hating oneself to be human. I think this thing you call “self-hate” is what I call _severe low self-esteem_ and that one’s own dignity is completely erased. Is this the concept you are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![SDMBKL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdmbkl/32/7297_2.png) [@SDMBKL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDMBKL)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/77 "2011-12-26T05:44:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh yes; I used to have a copy where I’d gone through it and underlined all the contradictions and atrocities I could find. It’s pretty vile. I have an idea! You can start your own church and preach your own biblical hermeneutics to the crowd! Martin Luther disliked the indulgence thing in the Catholic Church, and you dislike the “contradictions and atrocities” in the Bible version that you own. So, if you dislike it so much, then you can start your very own church and become a pastor at the church! Or, you can go for a more controversial route and rewrite the Bible: take out all the things you perceive as contradictory and atrocious and leave the good stuff behind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/78 "2011-12-26T05:52:11Z")
> [@SDMBKL](#): > > I honestly cannot tell if this is fact, your opinion, or plain hate speech against Christianity in general. I don’t think you are against _every single religion_. It seems like you are against Christianity or the Abrahamic religions. I’m against all of them, but Christianity is both even worse than most of them and happens to be the religion that is constantly in my face. It’s not Buddhism or Hinduism or Shinto that’s trying to force themselves into the schools or write the laws in this country. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > If you are referring specifically to Christianity (I recall earlier that you have highlighted contradictions in the Bible), then you are saying that Christianity is a massive load of “malice, self-hate, and delusion”. Specify that for me please. Specify what? The self hate? There’s even an example of that in this thread, the whole “humans are evil, all good comes from God” nonsense. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > Richard Dawkins, one famous atheist, has written a book called _The God Delusion_. I suppose that your usage of the word “delusion” to describe Christianity means that Christians are deluded to believe in such a god. Certainly. It’s a blatantly foolish and fake idea, less plausible than Santa Claus; it requires self delusion for any non-mentally disabled adult to buy it for a second. It’s delusional just as someone who actually believes in Santa Claus as an adult is delusional. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > You describe Christianity as “a massive load of malice”. I believe you are referring to the holy wars fought in the Crusades during the Middle Ages or the religious persecutions between Catholics and Protestants during Tudor England? And the bigotry against women and homosexuals and its hatred of everyone who disagrees with it and its hatred of pleasure & happiness that don’t involve persecuting people. Christianity basically hates the universe, and its history is one long festival of hatred. > [@SDMBKL](#): > > I think this thing you call “self-hate” is what I call _severe low self-esteem_ and that one’s own dignity is completely erased. Is this the concept you are talking about? No, I’m talking about the Christian attitude that we see right here in this thread; the idea that humans are all evil. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/79 "2011-12-26T06:31:38Z")
Good luck with the “sin of omission”. You get accused of sinning for not doing anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![SDMBKL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdmbkl/32/7297_2.png) [@SDMBKL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDMBKL)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991/80 "2011-12-26T15:13:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > the idea that humans are all evil. Off-topic, but do you know the name of the children’s movie of the “evil space alien” who wants to be evil? When this evil villain defeats the superhero, there is no point for living and no point for being evil. So, this super villain tries to _create_ a superhero and trains the superhero to be good while this supervillain continues being evil. Ironically, something goes awry, and the superhero finds his newfound powers pleasurable and uses them as much as he pleases to the point of abusing them. Then, the supervillain must convince the old superhero to change things to the way it was before, but the old superhero did not want to do so. So, the “supervillain” must seek a way for him to be good and save the day. He gains a friend and saves the city from the supervillain-superhero character. In the end, the supervillain becomes the superhero. I find the whole movie ironic and hilarious. I think the main point of the movie is that evil can be good and good can be evil, and that a human being (a being that has human nature) can be both good and evil, depending on the circumstances. I find it humorous that the evil villain at first labelled himself as “evil” and wanted to fulfill this destiny so badly, when really he should have understood that being good does have its perks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-counts-as-a-sin/605991.md?page=5)