# What Created The Space Which The Universe Occupies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 12, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508 "2023-12-12T22:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/21 "2023-12-13T03:26:54Z")
Sorry i didn’t realize it was factual questions. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/22 "2023-12-13T05:09:40Z")
It depends on which specific question is being asked. As @Chronos says, the Big Bang wasn’t an explosion in space. It was the creation of space and time for this universe. Not only that, but the universe is still expanding, equally in all directions as far as we can tell. So in a certain sense we are still in the Big Bang, since space is still being created, not stretched out. Beyond that, we get into areas where we can speculate but have little to no evidence to come up with testable hypotheses. I have my personal beliefs, some of which have been mentioned earlier. Since the FQ of what we do know has been mostly answered, I’ll throw out my personal beliefs on the matter. Everything that follows is speculation. I think the initial singularity was not infinitely small, but rather around the size of the Planck length. Yes; the implication is that our current universe is of finite size. I’m in agreement with @Moriarty that our universe started off as a black hole in some other, possibly higher dimensional, universe. I think the reason the universe is still expanding is that the stuff getting sucked into the black hole in that other universe gets converted to dark energy in this one, which is why dark energy / the cosmological constant seems to not actually be a constant. It’s not a fundamental part of the universe, like the speed of light or conservation of momentum, but rather depends on how much stuff happens to be around in that other universe for our parent black hole to suck up at any given time. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/23 "2023-12-13T05:38:48Z")
Is this the same thing as the theory of eternal inflation? > **[Parallel Universes: Theories & Evidence](https://www.space.com/32728-parallel-universes.html)** > > Sci-fi loves parallel universes. But could we really be in one? > That mysterious process of inflation and the Big Bang have convinced some researchers that multiple universes are possible, or even very likely. According to theoretical physicist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Massachusetts, inflation didn’t end everywhere at the same time. While it ended for everything that we can detect from Earth 13.8 billion years ago, cosmic inflation in fact continues in other places. This is called the theory of eternal inflation. And as inflation ends in a particular place, a new bubble universe forms, Vilenkin wrote for [Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/multiverse-the-case-for-parallel-universe/) in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/24 "2023-12-13T12:12:50Z")
In the recent “Extreme Physics “ issue of Scientific American, I read that space and time appear to have arisen from quantum mechanical entanglement. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/25 "2023-12-13T13:13:38Z")
So, the Universe is a black hole inside another universe? Does that make sense? So black holes in our Universe are tiny universes, which each contain many black holes, which are tiny universes that each contain many black holes … And out Universe is one of many black holes in a larger universe, which is in itself a black hole in an even larger universe, which is in itself … Nope, not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/26 "2023-12-13T14:09:55Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I think it’s a mistake to say there was nothing as a matter of fact. > > The truth is we don’t know. I’ve been careful here to say things like “to the best of our knowledge”, and “the evidence suggests that”. There’s certainly a lot of room for our best models to be wrong. That said, there’s a difference between “there’s the possibility that our best models might nonetheless be wrong” and “nobody has a clue, so everyone just make up whatever sounds best to you”. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is this the same thing as the theory of eternal inflation? Eternal inflation is not the same thing as the Universe being a black hole in some other universe. In both of them, what we think of as “the Universe” is embedded in some much larger structure, but the nature of that larger structure and the phenomenon which caused the start of “our Universe” are very different in the two models. And eternal inflation does certainly look plausible, and it gives different answers to many of the questions in this thread. In fact, it’s the main reason I’ve been including those weasel phrases like “to the best of our knowledge”. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/27 "2023-12-14T01:46:34Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > So black holes in our Universe are tiny universes, which each contain many black holes, which are tiny universes that each contain many black holes … > > And out Universe is one of many black holes in a larger universe, which is in itself a black hole in an even larger universe, which is in itself … Yes, that’s it. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Nope, not buying it. I’m not claiming any evidence in support for it - I think it was a supposition concocted while under the influence of some form of hallucinogen. But I provided some links upthread because I was pleasantly surprised to discover that other people, with some measure of scientific knowledge, have thought the same thing! > [@](#): > > Any such model requires that the [Hubble radius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_radius)of the observable universe be equal to its [Schwarzschild radius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius), that is, the product of its mass and the [Schwarzschild proportionality constant](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius#Formula_for_the_Schwarzschild_radius). This is indeed known to be nearly the case; at least one cosmologist, however, considers this close match to be a coincidence.[[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_cosmology#cite_note-3) > **[Black hole cosmology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_cosmology#:~:text=A%20black%20hole%20cosmology%20)** > > A black hole cosmology (also called Schwarzschild cosmology or black hole cosmological model) is a cosmological model in which the observable universe is the interior of a black hole. Such models were originally proposed by theoretical physicist Raj Pathria, and concurrently by mathematician I. J. Good. > Any such model requires that the Hubble radius of the observable universe be equal to its Schwarzschild radius, that is, the product of its mass and the Schwarzschild proportionality constant. Th... > [@](#): > > But our Universe has a very curious property that not everyone appreciates. If you add up the mass and energy of all the particles contained within the visible Universe, you can ask the question, “How big would the event horizon of a black hole with this mass be?” And the answer, perhaps surprisingly, is very close to the actual horizon size of the observable Universe. Additionally, there’s another related idea, made famous by Stephen Hawking, that each time we create a black hole in our Universe, it could give rise to a “baby Universe” that’s only accessible to an observer that crosses inside that black hole’s event horizon. Could our Universe, then, actually have been spawned by a black hole that was created in some sort of grand “parent Universe,” and do we give birth to a new Universe each time a new black hole is created? > **[Are we living in a baby universe that looks like a black hole to outsiders?](https://bigthink.com/hard-science/baby-universes-black-holes-dark-matter/)** > > The inside of every black hole leads to the birth of a new Universe. Could our Universe have arisen from one? I, for one, believe that it is _ludicrous_ to think that humans are alone in the universe. To the contrary, I suspect that existence is teeming with life. It’s not _that far_ a leap to imagine multiple universes. I also like the idea that the elements which comprise known life are formed from stars. The whole black hole thing seems consistent with that - the ingredients for the universe derive from the collapse of a star. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/28 "2023-12-14T01:49:28Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Yes; the implication is that our current universe is of finite size. As the above-mentioned astronomy teacher put it to me, we know the Universe is finite because it gets dark at night. If the Universe were infinitely vast and old, every point in the night sky would be occupied by visible starlight. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/29 "2023-12-14T02:11:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the Universe were infinitely vast and old, every point in the night sky would be occupied by visible starlight. Olber’s Paradox: > **[Olbers's paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers%27s_paradox)** > > Olbers's paradox, also known as the dark night paradox or Olbers and Cheseaux's paradox, is an argument in astrophysics and physical cosmology that says the darkness of the night sky conflicts with the assumption of an infinite and eternal static universe. In the hypothetical case that the universe is static, homogeneous at a large scale, and populated by an infinite number of stars, any line of sight from Earth must end at the surface of a star and hence the night sky should be completely il... ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/30 "2023-12-14T02:35:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > As the above-mentioned astronomy teacher put it to me, we know the Universe is finite because it gets dark at night. If the Universe were infinitely vast and old, every point in the night sky would be occupied by visible starlight. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Olber’s Paradox: I think the “standard” idea to explain that problem is the hypothesis of an infinitely large but finite in time universe. I don’t agree with the idea, in part because it seems to me that nature abhors infinities of all kinds, both large and small, but I accept that it seems to be the most popular hypothesis at this time. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/31 "2023-12-14T02:42:49Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I think about it this way: Space has always been there, and will always be there. It has no start and no end - like time. > > Yeah. It bagels the mind. How can you have infinite nothingness! 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/32 "2023-12-14T03:18:21Z")
One serious obstacle to black hole cosmology, nowadays, is dark energy. It’s difficult to even define concepts like black holes, or event horizons, in a context where dark energy is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/33 "2023-12-14T03:52:00Z")
[![](https://morbotron.com/meme/S05E10/1268082.jpg?b64lines=IENvcnJlY3QhCiBUaGlzIGJveCBjb250YWlucyBvdXIKIG93biB1bml2ZXJzZSE=) ](https://morbotron.com/meme/S05E10/1268082.jpg?b64lines=IENvcnJlY3QhCiBUaGlzIGJveCBjb250YWlucyBvdXIKIG93biB1bml2ZXJzZSE=) ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/34 "2023-12-14T03:53:31Z")
Lee Smolin proposed an interesting variant called [cosmological natural selection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selection), in which there are numerous universes, and every black hole produces a child universe, but with slightly different fundamental physical constants. The cool thing about this model is it explains the anthropic principle: why the physical constants in our universe seem to be so finely tuned to produce life. They are, in fact, finely tuned to produce _stars_, and thus black holes, because in this model the universes which produce the most black holes will be the most common. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/35 "2023-12-14T23:25:41Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > and thus black holes, because in this model the universes which produce the most black holes will be the most common. In other words, it’s (turtle-shaped?) universes all the way down. Verrrry Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/36 "2023-12-17T22:30:51Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Beyond the event horizon, spacetime becomes so distorted that the radial dimension pointing to the singularity becomes timelike, and the time dimension become spatial. Everything in the universe is (maybe, according to this hypothesis) being inexorably drawn into the singularity that lies in the future. You cannot stop time. I’ve been chewing on this for a while. I really like it, but I don’t think I have the scientific knowledge to more fully flesh it out. As I understand it, Einstein explained that space and time are linked. And so the idea that things are “moving” forward in time because of a gravitational force would seem to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508/37 "2023-12-18T00:00:25Z")
It makes even more sense when you realize that, in General Relativity, there’s no such thing as gravitational force. Absent any other force, such as electromagnetism, everything just keeps on moving in a straight line. The presence of masses just changes what a “straight line” is, by virtue of curving spacetime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-created-the-space-which-the-universe-occupies/994508.md?page=1)