# What crimes deserve the DP, given perfect knowledge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096 "2004-12-16T04:56:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/41 "2004-12-17T15:33:57Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > If I could interject into what was a bit of a 1-1 dialogue, then for me, it depends on circumstances. > > Was it simple kidnapping, where the victim was safe and cared for? Or did the kidnappers violently yank someone off the street and torture them in a hole and send body parts to the family to ensure payment? Are the perpetrators likely to re-offend? > > If it was violent and the kidnappers will try it again if ever released, then yes I would say that they deserve the death penalty. > > CAVEAT - this is still assuming we both their absolute guilt without question and that they will re-offend. As this capability does not exist now, I say no and so does the legal code of most states and the Federal government. So a non-violent kidnapping, with 100% known certain guilt, but an unknown chance to offend again, would not be up to snuff? I know the current laws don’t support this, but part of this discussion thread is expanding the scope of the Death Penalty. I think there are some crimes we want to deter as absolutely as possible. Like Rape. Kidnapping. Murder. Theft, for me. If kidnapping someone earns you a death sentence, I think fewer people would take the option. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/42 "2004-12-17T15:38:29Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > If kidnapping someone earns you a death sentence, I think fewer people would take the option. What makes you think that? Studies I’ve seen show that criminals don’t believe they’ll get caught for murder, and so they don’t take the death penalty into consideration when they make the decision to murder. Why would kidnapping be any different? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/43 "2004-12-17T15:39:04Z")
I would propose to add adultery to your list. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/44 "2004-12-17T15:39:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No. Not even for murder would I allow it, because it doesn’t balance anything. > > In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a bad guy (girl, actually) tries to murder a good vampire with a slow poison, the only cure for which is the lifeblood of a slayer. Fortunately, the bad girl is a slayer, so Our Heroine sets off to kill this rogue slayer to save the life of the vampire. > > I’m all about that kind of logic: if we could kill murderers in order to restore life to their victims, I’d be pro-death-penalty in such cases. > > But that’s not how it works. All you end up with at the end is an extra corpse. > > If deterrence worked, I’d probably be pro-death-penalty. But it doesn’t. > > Daniel The death penalty - I’ve heard statistics that say it works as a deterrent, and some that say it doesn’t - if it doesn’t work as a deterrent, I submit that it’s partially because the punishment fits the crime so closely. Those ready to kill in cold blood are, psychologically, more likely to be ready to die. So you regard Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness as inalienable rights. I’m with you so far. But what do we do with a murderer, then? Life imprisonment? Still nixes two out of three of those rights. What punishment can we put forth that WILL deter murderers? Torture? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/45 "2004-12-17T15:43:17Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What makes you think that? Studies I’ve seen show that criminals don’t believe they’ll get caught for murder, and so they don’t take the death penalty into consideration when they make the decision to murder. Why would kidnapping be any different? > > Daniel Well, in the case of non-violent kidnapping, it’s a bit harder to get away with, since you have brought along a living eyewitness and all… ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/46 "2004-12-17T15:43:39Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > So a non-violent kidnapping, with 100% known certain guilt, but an unknown chance to offend again, would not be up to snuff? Yes, that is what I think. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > I think there are some crimes we want to deter as absolutely as possible. Like Rape. Kidnapping. Murder. Theft, for me. If kidnapping someone earns you a death sentence, I think fewer people would take the option. **LHOD** beat me to it, but I will say my piece anyways… Absolutely, there are crimes that we want to deter. But you’re making a fallacious assumption that the death penalty is a sufficient deterrent. Why would drug lords continue to deal massive amounts of drugs and murder their opponents if they all knew that they would be killed if caught? Maybe because they fear being caught less than they fear their opponents? There is always the smart cookie who commits a crime, regardless of penalty, because he doesn’t think he can get caught. Those are the people that need to be removed from society, either through prison for non-violent or less-damaging crimes, or through the death penalty. I am not looking at the death penalty as a deterrent but as a punishment and a mechanism for ensuring that said crime doesn’t happen again. If someone is violent and will re-offend, then they need to be removed. Just to be sure I am understood - Since our current justice system is riddled with errors and mistakes (it is a human system after all) I do not support the death penalty. Whilst I do believe there are crimes that are death-worthy, I do not believe that any human agency is good enough to ensure that the person who did it is guilty, and therefore it is not a good idea for people to be killing other people as a punishment for crime. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/47 "2004-12-17T15:46:23Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > I would propose to add adultery to your list. May I ask why? It seems a bit extreme to kill someone for having sex outside marriage, is all… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/48 "2004-12-17T15:47:27Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Well, in the case of non-violent kidnapping, it’s a bit harder to get away with, since you have brought along a living eyewitness and all… Which means that, if deterrence does play a role and there’s equal penalties for kidnapping and murder, you’ve given the kidnapper the strongest possible motive to murder their victim. I’m not sure I like that result. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/49 "2004-12-17T15:50:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Which means that, if deterrence does play a role and there’s equal penalties for kidnapping and murder, you’ve given the kidnapper the strongest possible motive to murder their victim. I’m not sure I like that result. > > Daniel That is a point. We do need some gradation, especially in the case of kidnapping since it can so easily lead to murder. So, life imprisonment for kidnapping then, and death penalty for murder. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/50 "2004-12-17T15:53:40Z")
I guess the essence of my position is that if we can prove, without any doubt, that a person has deliberately and willfully deprived another person of inalienable rights, then the perpetrator by that deliberate action has forfeited his or her rights. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/51 "2004-12-17T15:56:50Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I guess the essence of my position is that if we can prove, without any doubt, that a person has deliberately and willfully deprived another person of inalienable rights, then the perpetrator by that deliberate action has forfeited his or her rights. I can definitely get behind that position. The problem is that in the current system we can’t prove to the degree I would find satisfactory in sentencing someone to death, of either their guilt or their likelihood to re-offend. Ever. I would never agree to the death penalty if the option for real (not paroled in 20 years or something stupid like that) life imprisonment exists. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/52 "2004-12-17T16:01:21Z")
Since the OP invokes a fairytale hypothetical ‘perfect knowledge’ (and presumably also then _incorruptible_) legal system, I’ll invoke a fairytale hypothetical perfect system of imprisonment and/or rehabilitation, making the death penalty superfluous; I’ll also replace any hypothetical deterrent value from the DP with a similarly effective public information scheme (albeit imaginary), the precise details of which are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/53 "2004-12-17T16:13:33Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Since the OP invokes a fairytale hypothetical ‘perfect knowledge’ (and presumably also then _incorruptible_) legal system, I’ll invoke a fairytale hypothetical perfect system of imprisonment and/or rehabilitation, making the death penalty superfluous; I’ll also replace any hypothetical deterrent value from the DP with a similarly effective public information scheme (albeit imaginary), the precise details of which are irrelevant. Fair enough - I see your imaginary circumstance and raise you one - What if, inspite of all your in-built rehab, the criminal still re-offends, repeatedly. What then? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/54 "2004-12-17T16:24:29Z")
For that to occur, the magic wand (the same one we used to make both the legal and penal systems perfect) must be broken, we will have to find a real-world solution that doesn’t require magic wands, probably in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/55 "2004-12-17T16:58:46Z")
I would only agree with the DP in the case where the charge was something like murder one. Planning and intention, direct action, etc. Espionage? Eh. Ok. Desertion? Hmm… no, not for me, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/56 "2004-12-17T17:23:13Z")
Killing a pregnant woman with the intent to cut open her womb and rip out the fetus, at great risk to the fetus too. > **[8 months pregnant woman murdered for her baby. What the fuck is wrong with...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=292349)** > > Link I nominate this for Understatement of the Year. Other than the fact that it is now a baby (and to my mind always was), this might be the sickest APB I have ever seen. “Calling all cars, be on the lookout for a baby that looks freshly ripped... ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/57 "2004-12-17T18:58:17Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > … it’s a question of whether we’ve got a right to kill them. I don’t believe we do … Since we can pretty well keep prisoners locked up for life … > [@bouv](#): > > … But if someone takes the life of another, or rapes another, then a lifetime sentance in prison is not enough, in my book. However, I am against the death penalty for all but the most violent of crimes. … But is it’s completly cold blooded, and we can see that, then lock them up and throw away the key. … beyond no death penalty except for ahorrent crimes (multiple murders/extremley violent rape or assualt/torture.) … > [@GomiBoy](#): > > … The problem is that in the current system we can’t prove to the degree I would find satisfactory in sentencing someone to death, of either their guilt or their likelihood to re-offend. Ever. I would never agree to the death penalty if the option for real (not paroled in 20 years or something stupid like that) life imprisonment exists. … Why is it assumed that life imprisonment without parole is any better or more humane that the death penalty? \* unless permanent imprisonment, in reality, isn’t? (still, i don’t see how spending 50 years in prison is any better than death. ) IMHO, there should not be a death penalty since there are alternatives, especially since we’re not even fully sure if a guilty person truly is. however, death should be an option left to the unforgiven. > [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > … But permanent imprisonment would be suitable punishment for many of the crimes so far mentioned for the DP, and I would allow any prisoner so iimprisoned to be allowed to choose the Death Penalty at there own disscression as an alternative. … > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > … I’m pretty damned happy that people don’t get caned for chewing gum where I live … and as far as i know, that’s true for the rest of the world as well. ;j - is it similar to the idea where throwing away perfectly edible food is frowned upon, but dumping it into the refrigerator where it eventually rots is okay? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/58 "2004-12-17T23:06:17Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > I can definitely get behind that position. > > The problem is that in the current system we can’t prove to the degree I would find satisfactory in sentencing someone to death, of either their guilt or their likelihood to re-offend. Ever. I would never agree to the death penalty if the option for real (not paroled in 20 years or something stupid like that) life imprisonment exists. Really? Never? Suppose a person kills his girlfriend. It’s absolutely certain he did it because he was found by his sister standing over the body saying that he killed her because he loved her. He goes to prison and eventually gets out. A pattern soon emerges- he gets out of custody, assaults someone (usually a girlfriend) and is re-incarcerated. One time, he didn’t even wait to be released- he assaulted a fellow inmate. There are at least six known assaults, and one was nearly fatal. Over the years, he is interviewed by various people in the criminal justice system. He has never denied the killing. He repeatedly justifies his violence and doesn’t even acknowledge that his actions were wrong,much less show remorse. He now (30 years after the killing) has assaulted yet another girlfriend. He admits to this latest assault, and again justifies his actions. As he is being arrested, he vows that no matter how long he is in prison, when he gets out, he will “get her”. There isn’t any doubt in my mind that he will be violent when he is again released- the only question is whether the assault will be fatal or not. If it’s fatal under circumstances in which it’s certain he’s guilty , I would have no problem with him getting the death penalty. In the current system , a person’s guilt or likelihood to reoffend can’t _always_ proven to my satisfaction, but sometimes it can. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/59 "2004-12-17T23:24:08Z")
I would support the death penalty under those circumstances for any person who committed the same or similar violent crimes after being released for doing them once. I would not support the death penalty for desertion, but I would for high treason. I would define high treason as knowing and willing cooperation with a foreign power with whom we are at war. Spying for France wouldn’t give the death penalty, but spying for an Al Quaida cell would. I would not support the death penalty for any crime of theft or fraud, or any non-violent crime of similar nature. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/60 "2004-12-17T23:38:50Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > May I ask why? It seems a bit extreme to kill someone for having sex outside marriage, is all… Its the ultimate level of personal betrayal that can be experienced. imho It destroys peoples lives, their famlies. It hurts children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096.md?page=4)