# What crimes deserve the DP, given perfect knowledge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096 "2004-12-16T04:56:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/61 "2004-12-18T20:26:35Z")
> [@Keweenaw](#): > > Its the ultimate level of personal betrayal that can be experienced. imho > > It destroys peoples lives, their famlies. It hurts children. Fatally? Yes, it is all of those things. But I don’t agree that it is worthy of the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/62 "2004-12-18T20:33:36Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Really? Never? Suppose a person kills his girlfriend. It’s absolutely certain he did it because he was found by his sister standing over the body saying that he killed her because he loved her. He goes to prison and eventually gets out. A pattern soon emerges- he gets out of custody, assaults someone (usually a girlfriend) and is re-incarcerated. One time, he didn’t even wait to be released- he assaulted a fellow inmate. There are at least six known assaults, and one was nearly fatal. Over the years, he is interviewed by various people in the criminal justice system. He has never denied the killing. He repeatedly justifies his violence and doesn’t even acknowledge that his actions were wrong,much less show remorse. He now (30 years after the killing) has assaulted yet another girlfriend. He admits to this latest assault, and again justifies his actions. As he is being arrested, he vows that no matter how long he is in prison, when he gets out, he will “get her”. There isn’t any doubt in my mind that he will be violent when he is again released- the only question is whether the assault will be fatal or not. If it’s fatal under circumstances in which it’s certain he’s guilty , I would have no problem with him getting the death penalty. In the current system , a person’s guilt or likelihood to reoffend can’t _always_ proven to my satisfaction, but sometimes it can. Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but I still insist that if there is ANY alternate means of preventing that person from hurting another, then I would not vote (if I was on the jury, say) for the death penalty. Hell of a tough issue that you’ve raised, here - the death penalty would obviously remove this person as a threat to others. But I also know of other means - protective segregation with a true life sentence for instance. As for his guilt, what if in the scenario described that he was actually having an affair with the girlffriend’s sister, girlfriend flew into a jealous rage, sister accidentally kills her, and guy takes the heat to save the woman he loves from going to prison. It’s possible, realistic, and would show that he is in fact innocent of the crime. His talk of ‘get her no matter what or how long’ could just be bluster, without a thought for follow-through, and history of re-offending is not enough justification in my mind to prove future re-offence. My reason to be against the death penalty is that I cannot ever, to my mind, know for sure that someone did it AND that they will reoffend - people say lots of things, and past behaviour can be indicative, but this guy could have a change of heart, whatever, and decide to not re-offend. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/63 "2004-12-18T20:59:37Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > … My reason to be against the death penalty is that I cannot ever, to my mind, know for sure that someone did it AND that they will reoffend - people say lots of things, and past behaviour can be indicative, but this guy could have a change of heart, whatever, and decide to not re-offend. so it is better to have him truly locked up for life? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/64 "2004-12-18T22:36:12Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Hell of a tough issue that you’ve raised, here - the death penalty would obviously remove this person as a threat to others. But I also know of other means - protective segregation with a true life sentence for instance. As for his guilt, what if in the scenario described that he was actually having an affair with the girlffriend’s sister, girlfriend flew into a jealous rage, sister accidentally kills her, and guy takes the heat to save the woman he loves from going to prison. It’s possible, realistic, and would show that he is in fact innocent of the crime. His talk of ‘get her no matter what or how long’ could just be bluster, without a thought for follow-through, and history of re-offending is not enough justification in my mind to prove future re-offence. I suppose the story of the sister killing the girlfriend is possible, but it didn’t happen that way. He and the girlfriend were visiting _his_ sister and brother-in-law, spent the night, and the sister and her husband woke up to find him over the body. Not sure what you mean by “protective segregation”- if you mean solitary, he will still get out of the cell sometimes, putting guards at risk, and I suspect a life sentence in solitary would be crueler than a death sentence. If you simply mean separated from the general population, he can still assault guards and other inmates. His current threat could indeed be bluster (although I don’t think it is), which is why I didn’t say I would support his execution for the latest assault. I would support it if he carried out the threat, and the assault was fatal, under circumstances in which it was certain he committed it- such as the circumstances in which the current assault was sommitted- on a crowded street, with many witnesses. (BTW, in case you haven’t figured it out, this is a true story). > [@](#): > > My reason to be against the death penalty is that I cannot ever, to my mind, know for sure that someone did it AND that they will reoffend - people say lots of things, and past behaviour can be indicative, but this guy could have a change of heart, whatever, and decide to not re-offend. What if you were sure he did it (I know you said you can’t be, but suppose a security camera taped it- then you could be sure, right) and were pretty sure he would reoffend? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/65 "2004-12-19T01:35:30Z")
For those that are opposed to life imprisonment on the grounds that it is _less_ humane than the DP, I would think that a system of life imprisonment with voluntary euthanasia/DP would be the best of both worlds. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/66 "2004-12-19T03:17:49Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > Why is it assumed that life imprisonment without parole is any better or more humane that the death penalty? \* unless permanent imprisonment, in reality, isn’t? (still, i don’t see how spending 50 years in prison is any better than death. ) Who said it was better or more humane? I’m just, most of the time, against the taking of someone’s life. Maybe death is the easy way out! In that case, I’ll gladly lock them up. I’m of the idea that one should actually feel like they are getting punsihed for what they did. You commit murder? Lock them in a 9x9 cell for the rest of thier life. Is it humane? Probably not. Is what they did humane? Definetely not! They deserve to get punished. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/67 "2004-12-19T03:57:52Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Here, here - I hope the same. > > But further, should (and I am \*\*\*NOT \*\* \* wishing this on any of you) something terrible happen to you or to someone you care about where the perpetrator would be eligible for a death sentence, I also hope you can continue your very moral and very admirable stance of being against the death penalty in all cases. > > I admire your stance, even if I disagree, but I do wonder what if… If I allowed my personal desire for revenge to overrule my moral belief that my society should not be killing people, well, I wouldn’t be much of a man now, would I? I don’t hold my beliefs only because it’s convenient for me to do so. I’m pretty astonished at some of the crimes some supporters in this thread would like to expand the death penalty to cover. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/68 "2004-12-19T04:08:34Z")
I’ve always had a really conflicted and ambiguous view of the death penalty, leaning more towards being against it than for it. Crimes like the murder of that young woman for her child make me rethink my position…I can think of no more appropriate reason for the death penalty than to remove that woman from the face of the earth. My only regret is that death is far too merciful a punishment for such a horrendous crime… I think the ban on cruel and unusual punishment should be suspended in the case of cruel and unusual crimes. This crime being a perfect example. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/69 "2004-12-20T10:33:30Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > so it is better to have him truly locked up for life? Yes, absolutely. Should it prove in future that the trial was wrong, you can release someone from prison. You can’t bring them back from the dead. And lots and lots of folks are being proved innocent with DNA testing and such. Without a magic wand that would less us know without doubt guilt or innocence, death is too permanent for our flawed legal system. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/70 "2004-12-20T10:44:28Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > (BTW, in case you haven’t figured it out, this is a true story). I figured that. Lots more [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10074-2004Dec18.html?referrer=email). Subscription required, but it’s free. > [@doreen](#): > > What if you were sure he did it (I know you said you can’t be, but suppose a security camera taped it- then you could be sure, right) and were pretty sure he would reoffend? Please don’t misunderstand me - this guy deserves death for the crimes he has commited and the fact that he would commit them again. (as to a security camera being enough, maybe, but it would depend on the way it was recorded - some video camera footage doesn’t really show clearly what happened…). But say it was a perfect world, with a perfect trial where he got adequate legal support (instead of some hack public defender who slept through his trial) and perfect video-recorded evidence that this guy committed the crime. And say in addition there is a voice recording of him threatening the victim that he will be back and he will finish her off. And assume that his previous record is accurate - this guy has come back and done damage to women he initially assaulted. Fine. Then say (and I am not religious, but let’s just say) he for real ‘Finds Jesus’ in prison and decides to leave his life of crime behind, and instead of wanting to do damage wants to find the women he assaulted previously and help them and support them and apologize to them. And say he also wants to work as a women’s advocate, teaching women how to avoid / deal with guys like him? Should he be killed anyways? My point is that no human agency is perfect enough to ensure, beyond any possible shadow of doubt, that a. he is guilty, and b. he will re-offend. The room for mistakes means that if he is truly sentenced to prison for life, if a mistake has been made, he can be released. If he is dead, he can’t be brought back. The simple and realistic what-ifs I have been able to pose seem to me to show that there is ALWAYS room for error. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/71 "2004-12-20T10:54:20Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > If I allowed my personal desire for revenge to overrule my moral belief that my society should not be killing people, well, I wouldn’t be much of a man now, would I? I don’t hold my beliefs only because it’s convenient for me to do so. > > I’m pretty astonished at some of the crimes some supporters in this thread would like to expand the death penalty to cover. Speaking for myself, I would only extend the death penalty in the magic world where we know guilt or innocence and if the person will re-offend without a doubt. I have also stated categorically and unequivically that in our current system there is too much margin for error and no way to prove intent to re-offend and I would never ever vote for the death penalty if I was on a jury. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/72 "2004-12-20T11:18:41Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > My point is that no human agency is perfect enough to ensure, beyond any possible shadow of doubt, that a. he is guilty, and b. he will re-offend. The room for mistakes means that if he is truly sentenced to prison for life, if a mistake has been made, he can be released. If he is dead, he can’t be brought back. The simple and realistic what-ifs I have been able to pose seem to me to show that there is ALWAYS room for error. I agree, but it just occurred to me to ask (and here seems the best place) - what if an innocent man is wrongly convicted, but the realisation of the mistake only happens _after_ he has lived his entire life behind bars and died there? Isn’t that the same as us executing him? Couldn’t it also be argued that imprisonment without (the unnatainable) absolute certainty is also bad, because it permanently deprives a human who _may, just possibly be innocent_ of something that we cannot fully restore (part or all of his life)? I’m asking this as an earnest - not provocative - question. For exactly the reasons you state, I cannot bring myself to support the DP, but this latest thought has me wondering… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/73 "2004-12-20T11:31:18Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > Then say (and I am not religious, but let’s just say) he for real ‘Finds Jesus’ in prison and decides to leave his life of crime behind, and instead of wanting to do damage wants to find the women he assaulted previously and help them and support them and apologize to them. And say he also wants to work as a women’s advocate, teaching women how to avoid / deal with guys like him? Should he be killed anyways? At the point where he’s killed two people, and assaulted a number of others , I value the life and safety of his next victim more than his opportunity to change. He’s already been given opportunities to change, and has chosen not to take advantage of them. He’s not a person who snapped and became violent once. Violence is a large part of who he. > [@](#): > > My point is that no human agency is perfect enough to ensure, beyond any possible shadow of doubt, that a. he is guilty, and b. he will re-offend. The room for mistakes means that if he is truly sentenced to prison for life, if a mistake has been made, he can be released. If he is dead, he can’t be brought back. The simple and realistic what-ifs I have been able to pose seem to me to show that there is ALWAYS room for error. There’s always room for error about re-offending. Thre’s usually, but not always a possibilty of error in determining guilt. There are damn few possibilities where I would support the death penalty because of the possibilty of error in determining guilt ( even my example could wise up and commit his next crime in a way that leaves some doubt). But just as I don’t eliminate the possibilty of error in determiniing guilt, neither do I eliminate the possibilty of certainty. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/74 "2004-12-20T12:04:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I agree, but it just occurred to me to ask (and here seems the best place) - what if an innocent man is wrongly convicted, but the realisation of the mistake only happens _after_ he has lived his entire life behind bars and died there? Isn’t that the same as us executing him? > Couldn’t it also be argued that imprisonment without (the unnatainable) absolute certainty is also bad, because it permanently deprives a human who _may, just possibly be innocent_ of something that we cannot fully restore (part or all of his life)? Yes and no; if someone is imprisoned at say 25 for life, you’ve got many many years to fix it if a mistake is made and let him/her out. You can also make accomodations based on his future behaviour. If someone is dead, you can’t do that. It’s really that simple for me. > [@doreen](#): > > At the point where he’s killed two people, and assaulted a number of others , I value the life and safety of his next victim more than his opportunity to change. He’s already been given opportunities to change, and has chosen not to take advantage of them. He’s not a person who snapped and became violent once. Violence is a large part of who he. Yes, without a doubt, but if you put him in prison for life without the possibility of parole, and put into place measures to ensure he can’t hurt any other inmates in prison, then why kill him if both his possible victim and the general public are protected from his violence? > [@doreen](#): > > There’s always room for error about re-offending. Thre’s usually, but not always a possibilty of error in determining guilt. There are damn few possibilities where I would support the death penalty because of the possibilty of error in determining guilt ( even my example could wise up and commit his next crime in a way that leaves some doubt). But just as I don’t eliminate the possibilty of error in determiniing guilt, neither do I eliminate the possibilty of certainty. Fair enough, and I understand where you are coming from. I just have seen or read about far too many instances where the person sentenced to death didn’t come anywhere close to the proof you have talked about in your example; people convicted on circumstantial evidence, or convicted without adequate council (the example I tossed out about the public defender sleeping repeatedly during trial was a true story of a DP case in Texas which was overturned on appeal and the convict set free due to mistrial and evidence of his innocence through DNA testing), etc… to allow the death penalty to be done without them. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/75 "2004-12-20T13:51:33Z")
Expanding on an earlier notion of mine - that notion being that people who so infringe upon the basic rights of others forfeiting their own rights - why don’t we just (in the world with the perfect-truth-detection system) use convicted murderers, rapists, etc. for medical experiments? Might be more practical than killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/76 "2004-12-20T13:59:43Z")
Isn’t that just another way of saying that you’d lie to see them tortured? It sounds like it. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/77 "2004-12-20T14:25:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Isn’t that just another way of saying that you’d lie to see them tortured? It sounds like it. No. I don’t enjoy seeing someone in pain. On the other hand, it really doesn’t bother me to see a murderer in pain. I’m sort of indifferent about it, see. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/78 "2004-12-20T14:34:06Z")
Ummm… Are you saying then, that a murderer is an unperson? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/79 "2004-12-20T14:44:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Ummm… > > Are you saying then, that a murderer is an unperson? Less of a person than a non-murderer, sure. I wouldn’t see a murderer tortured to bring anyone pleasure, for instance… but if OmniDrugCo needs some subjects for human trials on their Cancer cures, that serves a useful purpose. Kind of my view on animals - I don’t think people should inflict pain on animals for the purpose of inflicting pain, and testing frivolous things like cosmetics is wrong, but drugs, medical procedures, and the like? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096/80 "2004-12-20T15:24:53Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > May I ask why? It seems a bit extreme to kill someone for having sex outside marriage, is all… A _bit_ extreme? Sounds nuts to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-deserve-the-dp-given-perfect-knowledge/280096.md?page=5)