# What Crimes Should Be Punishable By the Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577 "2011-07-28T02:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/261 "2011-08-02T14:32:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I want certain criminals irreversibly incapacitated. So long as they’re alive, they may strike again. Once they’re executed, they can’t. I have no idea why any of that should be difficult to follow. Show me evidence that a judicial system can’t screw up a conviction, and that rehabilitation is totally impossible for all prisoners, and then we’ll talk. _“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”_ -Ben Franklin ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/262 "2011-08-02T14:47:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I want certain criminals irreversibly incapacitated. So long as they’re alive, they may strike again. Once they’re executed, they can’t. I have no idea why any of that should be difficult to follow. > > Show me evidence that a judicial system can’t screw up a conviction, and that rehabilitation is totally impossible for all prisoners, and then we’ll talk. Wow, that’s odd. I say I want _ **certain** _ criminals irreversibly incapacitated, and you ask for evidence that rehabilitation is totally impossible for _ **all** _ prisoners. Quite a non sequitur, that. If I tell you I want to eliminate one food for my diet, will you ask for evidence that none can be enjoyed in moderation? If I tell you I want to replace my car, will you ask for evidence that none of my possessions can be repaired? > [@](#): > > _“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”_ -Ben Franklin _“Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.”_ - Ben Franklin. (That said, is replacing “execution” with “locking someone away for the rest of their life” really a question of essential liberty?) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/263 "2011-08-02T14:52:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wow, that’s odd. I say I want _ **certain** _ criminals irreversibly incapacitated, and you ask for evidence that rehabilitation is totally impossible for _ **all** _ prisoners. Quite a non sequitur, that. If I tell you I want to eliminate one food for my diet, will you ask for evidence that none can be enjoyed in moderation? If I tell you I want to replace my car, will you ask for evidence that none of my possessions can be repaired? I am _sooo_ sorry! Please give us the names of the convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/264 "2011-08-02T15:00:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am _sooo_ sorry! Please give us the names of the convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed. Charles Manson. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/265 "2011-08-02T15:00:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am _sooo_ sorry! Please give us the names of the convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed. Well, let’s go one by one. How about Tim McVeigh? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/266 "2011-08-02T15:04:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, let’s go one by one. How about Tim McVeigh? A gold star to the first poster that can point out the glaring flaw in this answer to my question. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/267 "2011-08-02T15:07:55Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Charles Manson. Baring in mind that the supposed reason that the selections are being chosen is that **The Other Waldo Pepper** is trying to prevent the possibility that said prisoners not be able to kill others whether inside the prison or out, is Chucklin’ Charlie really at or near the top of your list? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/268 "2011-08-02T15:12:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A gold star to the first poster that can point out the glaring flaw in this answer to my question. I’d genuinely like a spot of clarification: are you saying you think McVeigh shouldn’t have been executed, for the reasons you laid out? > [@](#): > > The Other Waldo Pepper is trying to prevent the possibility that said prisoners not be able to kill others wither inside the prison or out Well, that’s not quite right. Consider the ever-popular go-to answer of Willie Horton, who was famously serving a life sentence with no possibility of parole and merely committed assault and armed robbery and rape while out on furlough. Should he have been executed? Yeah, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/269 "2011-08-02T15:21:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’d genuinely like a spot of clarification: are you saying you think McVeigh shouldn’t have been executed, for the reasons you laid out? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am _sooo_ sorry! Please give us the names of the convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed. So you would like to execute him _again_? Try to name someone _currently_ in our prison system, please. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/270 "2011-08-02T15:24:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you would like to execute him _again_? Try to name someone _currently_ in our prison system, please. Already did – and I like the “Manson” answer as well, given that he’s still up for parole. Now, by all means, answer the separate question: would your objections have applied to McVeigh at the time of his execution? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/271 "2011-08-02T15:29:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Already did – and I like the “Manson” answer as well, given that he’s still up for parole. You feel Manson is a potential danger to others both in and outside the prison system? If ever there has a case for life imprisonment working it’s him, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/272 "2011-08-02T15:36:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You feel Manson is a potential danger to others both in and outside the prison system? You quoted me saying “given that he’s still up for parole.” Run with that. Again, I’d sure like to hear your answer about McVeigh: given your stated concerns, should we or shouldn’t we have executed him? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/273 "2011-08-02T15:47:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You quoted me saying “given that he’s still up for parole.” Run with that. > > Again, I’d sure like to hear your answer about McVeigh: given your stated concerns, should we or shouldn’t we have executed him? Nope, on the list of immediate and real dangers to society and myself, Tim McVeigh in prison for life isn’t even in the top 1,000. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/274 "2011-08-02T15:52:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Again, I’d sure like to hear your answer about McVeigh: given your stated concerns, should we or shouldn’t we have executed him? > > Nope, on the list of immediate and real dangers to society and myself, Tim McVeigh in prison for life isn’t even in the top 1,000. I said “given your stated concerns”. Let me rephrase: given your criteria of _“convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed”_, would McVeigh have fit the bill at the time of execution? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/275 "2011-08-02T16:02:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I said “given your stated concerns”. Let me rephrase: given your criteria of _“convicted criminals you feel have been given a perfect trial and are totally beyond rehabilitation that you wish to see executed”_, would McVeigh have fit the bill at the time of execution? I have yet to see a perfect trial, and I have no way of knowing who can or can’t be rehabilitated, thus my stance on the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/276 "2011-08-02T17:05:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Show me evidence that a judicial system can’t screw up a conviction, and that rehabilitation is totally impossible for all prisoners, and then we’ll talk. > > _“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”_ -Ben Franklin [Wrongful convictions happen.](http://truthandjusticedenied.com/Wrongful_Conviction_Statist.html) [According to the The Innocence Project](http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Facts_on_PostConviction_DNA_Exonerations.php), many people have been exonerated through DNA evidence. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/277 "2011-08-03T15:38:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Baring in mind that the supposed reason that the selections are being chosen is that **The Other Waldo Pepper** is trying to prevent the possibility that said prisoners not be able to kill others whether inside the prison or out, is Chucklin’ Charlie really at or near the top of your list? I wouldn;t want to be in the cell with him. I can tell you that much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/278 "2011-08-03T16:07:43Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > I wouldn’t want to be in the cell with him. I can tell you that much. Why? he is 76 years old with no history of violence while in the prison system. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/279 "2011-08-03T16:17:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why? he is 76 years old with no history of violence while in the prison system. Would you have been comfortable with him 39 years ago when he was convicted? If not, what do we do with convicted killers? Can we isolate all of them to protect the rest of the prison population? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/280 "2011-08-03T16:36:32Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Would you have been comfortable with him 39 years ago when he was convicted? If not, what do we do with convicted killers? Can we isolate all of them to protect the rest of the prison population? He had a long history as an ex-con when he was convicted the last time-no problems with violence in that history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=15)