# What Crimes Should Be Punishable By the Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577 "2011-07-28T02:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/41 "2011-07-28T07:30:09Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I always hear people say this. Why? Why don’t you trust the legal system? > > After all the appeals these people get - after years, sometimes _decades_ on death row - I think they are treated plenty fair. > > Sometimes I hear people say, “if even ONE person is ever wrongly executed, the whole system is evil.” Why? I’d say if only one person is wrongly executed, out of thousands, I’d say the system actually works pretty damn well. These people, by the way, never seem to give a damn about the thousands of people murdered by criminals, so I think their moral compass is a little fucked up. I have never said what you have in quotation marks. Not even once. I have said that is better for 10 guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to go to jail. Not nearly the same thing. It certainly does NOT mean I don’t give a damn people murdered by criminals. How can a wrongful conviction help that??? Would your moral compass be OK with an innocent man in prison? If the innocent man is in prison, then the guilty man has escaped punishment for that crime. We could through a long list of people released after decades in prison, after it found they were wrongly convicted. \*It was not government investigators or lawyers who get them freed. \* BTW, I used to be pro-death penalty. My mind was changed on the board. Here is the thread. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273538&highlight=death+penalty](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273538&highlight=death+penalty) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/42 "2011-07-28T07:36:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sure it is. Allowing murderers to keep drawing breath is what is unjust, and giving them a free pass after a relatively short time in prison…which used to be the norm and still is in the case of convictions with the possibility of parole…is the greatest injustice of all. Yeah, it was a shame when they released Charles Manson - oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/43 "2011-07-28T07:56:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > None. It is never any mortal’s place to decide the death of another. This. The concept of the death penalty seems positively medieval. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/44 "2011-07-28T08:07:27Z")
Here’s a really good reason why I do not trust the legal system with the death penalty. The sad case of Rolando Cruz. > **[Home - Center on Wrongful Convictions](https://cwc.law.northwestern.edu/)** > > The Center on Wrongful Convictions is dedicated to identifying and rectifying wrongful convictions and other serious miscarriages of justice. > [@](#): > > After four years of arduous litigation, the Illinois Supreme Court reversed Cruz’s conviction in 1994, and granted him a third trial. Prior to that trial, _newly available DNA testing excluded Cruz_ and Hernandez as the child’s rapists and linked Dugan to the crime. **Even so, prosecutors refused to drop the case.** ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/45 "2011-07-28T08:09:11Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Yeah, it was a shame when they released Charles Manson - oh wait… It really doesn’t speak very well for your side, **Der Trihs** , when you proudly point to the fact that we’ve actually been able to keep the perpetrator of a couple of the most horrific crimes of the twentieth century in jail for the last forty two years. Manson and his henchcrowd should have been executed decades ago like they were sentenced to be. And you know why they weren’t? You got it! A liberal Supreme Court overturned the death penalty, which not only let them off the hook for execution but made them eligible for parole, as it also did for every other murderer in the country who was under a death sentence at the time. Where’s the justice in that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/46 "2011-07-28T08:27:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It really doesn’t speak very well for your side, **Der Trihs** , when you proudly point to the fact that we’ve actually been able to keep the perpetrator of a couple of the most horrific crimes of the twentieth century in jail for the last forty two years. Um, no, that rather proves the point that the death penalty just isn’t necessary. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Manson and his henchcrowd should have been executed decades ago like they were sentenced to be. And you know why they weren’t? You got it! A liberal Supreme Court overturned the death penalty, which not only let them off the hook for execution but made them eligible for parole, as it also did for every other murderer in the country who was under a death sentence at the time. Where’s the justice in that? And what makes you think there’s any particular justice in killing them? Especially considering all the innocents who’d be killed in the process. I personally see little difference between most death penalty supporters and the worse murderers in prison, given how little concern death penalty supporters generally have for killing innocent people. Most just seem to want to kill someone, _anyone_; innocence or guilt doesn’t really matter to them as long as they get to drink some blood. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/47 "2011-07-28T08:34:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This thread isn’t asking whether life without parole is better than the death penalty, it’s asking which crimes should be punishable by death. My opinion is that if a person deliberately and illegally takes the life of someone else, and thereby deprives that person and his family and loved ones of his life, then he deserves to lose his life. Period! It’s keeps the karmic scales in balance, provides an important element of closure for the victims’ loved ones, and is fair, appropriate and just. Given that in my opinion he loses his right to be drawing breath the moment he deprives someone else of their life, I give one tiny little hoot about his rehabilitation. He doesn’t deserve to be rehabilitated for one thing; and for another I don’t think this country is so short on productive citizens that whatever teensy benefit society would gain by his becoming one would come close to outweighing the injustice and grief that his still being alive causes. FFS ‘karmic scales’?? You are not qualified to comment on this question as you are obviously not living in reality. To answer the OP None. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/48 "2011-07-28T08:51:17Z")
I agree, none. A civilized society does not answer death with death, doesn’t seek revenge in place of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/49 "2011-07-28T08:57:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um, no, that rather proves the point that the death penalty just isn’t necessary. I don’t care whether it’s necessary. It’s just. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what makes you think there’s any particular justice in killing them? Already answered. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Especially considering all the innocents who’d be killed in the process. Already answered. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I personally see little difference between most death penalty supporters and the worse murderers in prison, given how little concern death penalty supporters generally have for killing innocent people. Funny, I don’t see you lameting the deaths of all the innocents killed by murderers who’ve been released from prison because of Supreme Court and lesser court rulings, or simply because they’ve been paroled, and determining that there is therefore little difference between them and the actual murderers. The number of innocents killed that way absolutely dwarfs however many innocent people may have been executed in this country. So why aren’t you all hopped up over _their_ deaths, I wonder? And besides, what I advocate for (and this is the third thing now that I already answered above; it would save us both some typeage if you would read my posts before responding to them) is execution only in cases where guilt is beyond all doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/50 "2011-07-28T09:09:57Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > I agree, none. A civilized society does not answer death with death, doesn’t seek revenge in place of justice. I submit that a civilized society is one in which its citizens feel safe and can go about their lives free from the fear that may be killed by a paroled murderer, or by someone insufficiently fearful of the consequences because the worst punishment they face is “rehabilitation” or three squares, TV and a cot for the rest of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/51 "2011-07-28T10:08:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Funny, I don’t see you lameting the deaths of all the innocents killed by murderers who’ve been released from prison because of Supreme Court and lesser court rulings, or simply because they’ve been paroled, and determining that there is therefore little difference between them and the actual murderers. I don’t see you lamenting the people killed by criminals released from prison against the desire of judges because of mandatory sentencing laws passed due to terror of all those largely imaginary liberal judges preventing those judges from extending their sentences. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The number of innocents killed that way absolutely dwarfs however many innocent people may have been executed in this country. So why aren’t you all hopped up over _their_ deaths, I wonder? Because I don’t believe that it is true. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And besides, what I advocate for (and this is the third thing now that I already answered above; it would save us both some typeage if you would read my posts before responding to them) is execution only in cases where guilt is beyond all doubt. Which would be pretty much never. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I submit that a civilized society is one in which its citizens feel safe and can go about their lives free from the fear that may be killed by a paroled murderer, or by someone insufficiently fearful of the consequences because the worst punishment they face is “rehabilitation” or three squares, TV and a cot for the rest of their lives. But a society where people fear being tossed into prison or executed for being poor or having dark skin is fine with you naturally. And prison is a hellish existence, especially in a nation as amoral and sadistic as America. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/52 "2011-07-28T10:28:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But a society where people fear being tossed into prison or executed for being poor or having dark skin is fine with you naturally. And prison is a hellish existence, especially in a nation as amoral and sadistic as America. Then getting rid of the death penalty doesn’t help much, does it? The solution is to make sure that innocent people aren’t found guilty in the first place - merely throwing them in prison instead of executing them isn’t good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/53 "2011-07-28T10:39:01Z")
Most of the things I think should be punishable by the death penalty aren’t actually crimes, just stuff other people do that piss me off: Talking at the cinema, stopping for a chat right in front of a shop doorway, spitting on the pavement, existing in an annoying manner and so on. As for actual crimes (the powers that be refuse to make pissing me off illegal), I mainly say none. Unless I’m the victim of crime, in which case I want the fuckers responsible to fry for it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/54 "2011-07-28T10:42:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then getting rid of the death penalty doesn’t help much, does it? The solution is to make sure that innocent people aren’t found guilty in the first place - merely throwing them in prison instead of executing them isn’t good enough. Removing the death penalty makes it less likely for innocents to be convicted, since death penalty cases tend to have the worse defenses. That’s one reason for all the appeals, the original trials tend to be terrible, with things like drunken defense lawyers sleeping in court. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/55 "2011-07-28T11:01:58Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/56 "2011-07-28T11:05:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Removing the death penalty makes it less likely for innocents to be convicted, since death penalty cases tend to have the worse defenses. That’s one reason for all the appeals, the original trials tend to be terrible, with things like drunken defense lawyers sleeping in court. By what mechanism is that the death penalty’s fault? Wouldn’t it be more logical to conclude that terrible original trials are more likely to get someone sentenced to the death penalty instead of the other way around, or even that the appeals process discovers failures that simply go undiagnosed in non-death penalty cases? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/57 "2011-07-28T11:23:54Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > By what mechanism is that the death penalty’s fault? Apparently most defense attorneys don’t like defending people in death penalty cases, so such defendants get only the worst of the worst. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/58 "2011-07-28T11:25:52Z")
> [@wheresgeorge04](#): > > Repeated physical / sexual abuse of animals or people. > > Joe Of Animals? Can I add to the list sexual practices I personnally find repulsive and consumption or sale of meat/leather? I’m opposed to death penalty in general but for such egregious crimes, I guess we could make an exception… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/59 "2011-07-28T11:32:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then getting rid of the death penalty doesn’t help much, does it? The solution is to make sure that innocent people aren’t found guilty in the first place - merely throwing them in prison instead of executing them isn’t good enough. Not good enough, no. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and at least wrongful prison time is something that can be partially remedied. Death isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/60 "2011-07-28T11:33:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And besides, what I advocate for (and this is the third thing now that I already answered above; it would save us both some typeage if you would read my posts before responding to them) is execution only in cases where guilt is beyond all doubt. I tend to suspect that “beyond all doubt” has wiggle room enough in there for a judge or jury to agree to an example of it that you might not. Or vice-versa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=4)