# What Crimes Should Be Punishable By the Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577 "2011-07-28T02:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/161 "2011-07-29T18:01:30Z")
> [@zephyr9](#): > > I truly just don’t understand why people are so passionately **against** the death penalty. Where does the passion AGAINST it originate, if not with Christian morality? This is what I’d like to understand. I personally don’t see any benefit to the death penalty vs. life imprisonment. None. Not cost, not vengeance, not as a deterrent. As an atheist, my compass is not through any religious morality. It is simply what is practical and logical. In practicality, we can NEVER be sure. Ever. And it costs many times more to kill someone than it does to just lock them up. How many innocent people need to be convicted or killed before we say enough? Is 99.99% good enough? Not to that 1 in 10,000 it isn’t. If you had only a 99.99% chance of surviving a plane trip you’d be screaming for the government to do something about it. What problem is being solved by killing someone? If there were an answer to that that wasn’t also solved by life in prison, I’d be for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/162 "2011-07-29T19:01:11Z")
> [@zephyr9](#): > > If its Christian values of not inflicting pain and death…then that should extend to other sentient beings also. Not just humans. These aren’t just Christian values. I’m one of the most unChristian people on this board and I subscribe to those values. But I don’t see why they have to extend to other sentiences. I can see how an argument could be made, but it’s not just a matter of “should” - you need more justification than that. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/163 "2011-07-29T19:01:55Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > I personally don’t see any benefit to the death penalty vs. life imprisonment. None. Not cost, not vengeance, not as a deterrent. As an atheist, my compass is not through any religious morality. It is simply what is practical and logical. In practicality, we can NEVER be sure. Ever. And it costs many times more to kill someone than it does to just lock them up. How many innocent people need to be convicted or killed before we say enough? Is 99.99% good enough? Not to that 1 in 10,000 it isn’t. If you had only a 99.99% chance of surviving a plane trip you’d be screaming for the government to do something about it. > > What problem is being solved by killing someone? If there were an answer to that that wasn’t also solved by life in prison, I’d be for the death penalty. These sorts of rate arguments bother me because there is an acceptable rate for anything or it isn’t something done. A quick Google search gave me a value of 1 in 9.2 million chance of dying in a plane crash for the top safest airlines. More or less, that works out to the idea that we, as a society, are okay with killing 1 in every 9.2 million people for the convenience and speed of airline travel. If that rate were too high, no one would fly. People drive cars every day and they’re even more dangerous. Now here’s a scenario, let’s say I want to go on vacation across country. I could take a plane, but I have a 1 in 9.2 million chance of dying. Now let’s also say that, for the sake of argument, I could walk and be absolutely certain I will make it, it will just take days or weeks to do it and I’ll be tired and all that. Sure, there’ll be a few random people who wouldn’t choose it, but how many societies would straight up disallow it based on that? And if we’re willing to accept death as a given in a future plane crashes for something like faster travel, what sort of rate is justice worth? If the death penalty is just, and it is only the practical aspects that concern people, what sort of failure rate ought we to accept? If we pride ourselves as a just society, knowing that justice intrinsically carries a failure rate, at what point does that failure rate cross a threshold from acceptable to not acceptable? I think that, in general, we as a society hold justice as one of our central virtues and so it it ought to bear a reasonable accepted failure rate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/164 "2011-07-29T19:13:16Z")
> [@zephyr9](#): > > The Ashanti tribe in Africa are considered a “rape free” society. Bwaaahaaa haaa haa. You’ve been reading too much Sanday. In the Ashanti heartland of Ghana, it’s not rape if you’re married (even if the bride is 14). And wartime rape is pervasive in Ivory Coast. I doubt that follows tribal lines. Sanday’s fieldwork was laughable. She made the classic mistake of believing what her indigenous Indonesian contacts told her about rape unquestionable, for instance. Like they were going to tell her all about it… > [@](#): > > They revere the female, and have a reverent attitude toward the natural world which sustains them. Suuuure they do. That’s why[ > [@](#): > > Menstruating women suffered numerous restrictions. The Ashanti viewed them as ritually unclean. They did not cook for men, nor did they eat any food cooked for a man. If a menstruating woman entered the ancestral stool house, she was arrested, and the punishment was typically death. ]([Asante Empire - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_Empire#Menstruation_and_impurity)) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/165 "2011-07-29T19:23:14Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > And if we’re willing to accept death as a given in a future plane crashes for something like faster travel, what sort of rate is justice worth? If the death penalty is just, and it is only the practical aspects that concern people, what sort of failure rate ought we to accept? If we pride ourselves as a just society, knowing that justice intrinsically carries a failure rate, at what point does that failure rate cross a threshold from acceptable to not acceptable? I think that, in general, we as a society hold justice as one of our central virtues and so it it ought to bear a reasonable accepted failure rate. The problem is that you bear the cost yourself with something like plane crashes. That’s a risk you accept when you get on the plane. Nobody agrees to accept the risk they’ll be convicted of a crime they didn’t commit. (I guess the counterargument would be that if you live in a society you agree to accept the risk the justice system might fail you completely, but I don’t think most people would accept that reasoning.) ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/166 "2011-07-29T19:47:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem is that you bear the cost yourself with something like plane crashes. That’s a risk you accept when you get on the plane. Nobody agrees to accept the risk they’ll be convicted of a crime they didn’t commit. (I guess the counterargument would be that if you live in a society you agree to accept the risk the justice system might fail you completely, but I don’t think most people would accept that reasoning.) I’m not comparing the individual, I’m comparing society as a whole. Society values high speed travel and so it accepts that some people will die to achieve it. Similarly, if society values justice, it should accept that some people may die to achieve it. Justice isn’t something that so much exists on an individual basis, as on any individual transation, it is either just or it is unjust. It is the collection of all of the actions of all of the individuals in a society where that determine if the society is just or not. And if you want to make it individual, though I actually believe that there are certain risks that come along with the benefits that go with being part of a society, that’s sort of a derailing. Instead, if you’d like, ignore the plane example and go with something else where there’s no so much an opportunity to accept a risk. For instance, just like society tends to value justice, it also tends to value free speech and yet I don’t think anyone really chooses to accept the risk of racist, sexist, or any manner of other hateful things being spewed at them. In both cases, society has decided those are values worth having and has imposed the risks that come with them on everyone. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/167 "2011-07-29T19:53:35Z")
None. I think too many people are falsly accused. People that are falsly accused have a rough time proving their innocence, especially in cases of rape where it often comes down to “he-said/she-said” cases. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/168 "2011-07-29T19:53:54Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m not comparing the individual, I’m comparing society as a whole. Society values high speed travel and so it accepts that some people will die to achieve it. Similarly, if society values justice, it should accept that some people may die to achieve it. Justice isn’t something that so much exists on an individual basis, as on any individual transation, it is either just or it is unjust. It is the collection of all of the actions of all of the individuals in a society where that determine if the society is just or not. Whatever “society” chooses, the risks in plane crashes are still borne by the people who decide to fly. Making exceptions for children, there’s basically no risk you will die in a plane crash if you don’t decide to get on a plane. You can’t opt out of the risk of being convicted of a crime you didn’t commit, much less being executed for it. So society can accept one level of risk for a voluntary activity and tolerate much less from an impersonal justice system, particularly when the justice system has options that don’t involve killing anybody at all. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/169 "2011-07-29T22:00:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You want to execute witnesses, judges, cops and jurors? I wouldn’t let me indent to list them. I want to execute people who kill Judges, DA’s etc. Sorry it’s confusing! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/170 "2011-07-29T22:21:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Whatever “society” chooses, the risks in plane crashes are still borne by the people who decide to fly. Making exceptions for children, there’s basically no risk you will die in a plane crash if you don’t decide to get on a plane. You can’t opt out of the risk of being convicted of a crime you didn’t commit, much less being executed for it. So society can accept one level of risk for a voluntary activity and tolerate much less from an impersonal justice system, particularly when the justice system has options that don’t involve killing anybody at all. We accept that a plane could crash into a populated area and kill innocent people that didn’t knowingly accept any risk. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/171 "2011-07-29T22:27:08Z")
**crow** -you quoted me without context. The full context is: morder in the context of a sex crime. (i.e you murder the woman you just raped). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/172 "2011-07-29T22:35:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Um. Animals aren’t people. I’m not a Christian. Nor am I a pacifist. And plants are alive. > > And Jesus also said “I came not to bring peace, but a sword”; like the rest of the Bible you can use him to justify anything. But **Qin** IS, and since he’s trying to use Jesus to justify his beliefs, it only makes sense to point out what Jesus said. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/173 "2011-07-29T22:39:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But **Qin** IS, and since he’s trying to use Jesus to justify his beliefs, it only makes sense to point out what Jesus said. I was responding to **zephyr9** , who started his argument with “most of the people posting here”. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/174 "2011-07-30T00:06:53Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > (Bolding mine, of course). It is also a fact that I know various people who work in prisons in the US, and after many anecdotes and discussions, I think that prisons in the US are just not good things. They don’t rehabilitate; they dehumanize. They don’t teach a lesson; they institutionalize. I think that people in general underestimate exactly how harsh even a 5-year prison sentence is. I am not nearly the same person I was 5 years ago. 5 years is a significant portion of my productive adult life. I actually agree on that point, people in jail just rot and are usually unable to be improved and it often is a training ground for criminals. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Also, I don’t care to argue whether the death penalty is ever _justified_. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. Rather, I would like assert that it’s never the _best_ option. First, we should strive to teach criminals compassion, rather than to punish them. (I will admit that this is a tenet of my Christian faith and so may not be wholly rational.) Second, I think that killing dehumanizes the killer, and here I’m referring the the executioner, or to our criminal justice system. That is, I would prefer to be better than the criminals. > > My turn. **Qin Shi Huangdi** , have you heard of the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa? [/QUOTE] Yes, its point it seems to me was not punishment but was to find out the truth about human rights violations. > [@Knorf](#): > > This is not persuasive. Creating a caricature, mocking a position, is not equivalent to refuting it. What your comments reveals is that you don’t fundamentally understand the position of those nations and peoples who oppose the death penalty. > > But, let’s go with it for second. You really think countries as diverse as Mexico, England, Turkey, and Russia (to name four) have all been corrupted by the same “wishy-washy , topsy-turvey vaguely secularist vaguely hippieish, ‘progressive’ morality” into abolishing the death penalty? Care to elucidate how this remarkable coincidence came to pass? I wouldn’t say that. I was talking largely about Europe and the rest of the Western world. Russia for example seems to prefer “extra-judicial killings” while in Mexico the Green Party is demanding capital punishment back. > [@RickJay](#): > > Our lower crime rate suggests there might be something to our approach. We have gotten tougher on crime in general since the '70s > [@MrDibble](#): > > Really? “Fortunately”? You don’t think a world where everyone believed killing people is always wrong would be a better one? If nobody is willing to commit murder that’s great, but if there is even one murderer than it is necessary than society be capable of violence. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I thought Jesus said to “turn the other cheek?” and “judge not, lest ye be judged?” That was for personal matters. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/175 "2011-07-30T00:28:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > We have gotten tougher on crime in general since the '70s And how’s that working out for us? > [@](#): > > That was for personal matters. You mean like when the prostitute was about to be stoned to death? Where did Jesus state he approved of the death penalty? Chapter, verse? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/176 "2011-07-30T02:20:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Where did Jesus state he approved of the death penalty? Chapter, verse? Obviously, Jesus is never quoted as having said, “I support the death penalty”. However, he did say that he didn’t come to destroy the law, part of which included the death penalty. And if he was the son of God and really opposed the death penalty, he could have saved the two thieves from crucifixion. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/177 "2011-07-30T02:42:06Z")
> [@zephyr9](#): > > Not trying to be clever. Not a Christian. Just trying to make a point. > Ok, why be against the death penalty? Many innocent people are convicted. Would you want to see innocent people face the death penalty? > [@zephyr9](#): > > What is the point of keeping alive someone who is a detriment to society? Many people convicted of serious offenses are put in prison. That is enough. Besides, there could also be a chance that they are innocent. > [@zephyr9](#): > > What are anti death penalty people trying to prove, or to save? That’s what I don’t understand.. What is it that makes the death penalty “wrong” for you? The death penalty is wrong because it’s barbaric. People convicted of crimes are already facing jail time. Shouldn’t that be enough? People convicted of crimes are already removed from society. Some people convicted of serious crimes are already permanently removed from society without the possibility of parole. I do not believe in an eye for an eye. Sorry. I believe that jail time is a harsh enough punishment for those convicted of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/178 "2011-07-30T02:56:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Exactly. Statistically, few people are murdered by dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/179 "2011-07-30T03:36:29Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > The death penalty is wrong because it’s barbaric. People convicted of crimes are already facing jail time. Shouldn’t that be enough? People convicted of crimes are already removed from society. Some people convicted of serious crimes are already permanently removed from society without the possibility of parole. I do not believe in an eye for an eye. Sorry. I believe that jail time is a harsh enough punishment for those convicted of crimes. They’re removed from polite society and put in an impolite one. Why should people in prison for writing bad checks have to live with them? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577/180 "2011-07-30T03:48:57Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m not comparing the individual, I’m comparing society as a whole. Society values high speed travel and so it accepts that some people will die to achieve it. Similarly, if society values justice, it should accept that some people may die to achieve it. Justice isn’t something that so much exists on an individual basis, as on any individual transation, it is either just or it is unjust. It is the collection of all of the actions of all of the individuals in a society where that determine if the society is just or not. > > And if you want to make it individual, though I actually believe that there are certain risks that come along with the benefits that go with being part of a society, that’s sort of a derailing. Instead, if you’d like, ignore the plane example and go with something else where there’s no so much an opportunity to accept a risk. For instance, just like society tends to value justice, it also tends to value free speech and yet I don’t think anyone really chooses to accept the risk of racist, sexist, or any manner of other hateful things being spewed at them. In both cases, society has decided those are values worth having and has imposed the risks that come with them on everyone. But we, as a society, do not take risks that aren’t necessary for some other benefit. And we certainly don’t allow risks to individuals that are avoidable for a reasonable cost. It seems to me that is the entire basis for some of the punitive damages we have in civil cases. We accept certain risks for plane travel because of the benefit to society. What benefit to society does the death penalty convey? It isn’t just a matter of risk, although it is a part of it. It is a matter of risk vs. reward and cost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-crimes-should-be-punishable-by-the-death-penalty/590577.md?page=10)