What Crimes Should Be Punishable By the Death Penalty

[Marley23]

@MrDibble

Learn to fucking read.

You’re not posting in the Pit, so watch it. zephyr9, his username is MrDibble.

[Der_Trihs]

@tim-n-va

No, I think people are confusing correlation with causality. The police don’t say “let’s go get a poor person and frame him so we can close this case”.

Sure they do. Or black, or gay, or whatever their particular bugaboo is.

@tim-n-va

I’m saying that choosing a life of crime is what brings the risk of false convictions and using being poor to justify that life of crime is BS.

Don’t be ridiculous; what makes you think that not being a criminal means you can’t be falsely convicted?

[Guinastasia]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

That was for personal matters.

Was the stoning of the prostitute a “personal matter”?

@tim-n-va

I’m saying that choosing a life of crime is what brings the risk of false convictions and using being poor to justify that life of crime is BS.

If I’m convicted for committing a crime, it’s not actually a false conviction, now is it. A false conviction is for something I didn’t do. :rolleyes: It could be because I’m at the wrong place at the wrong time, I look like so and so, etc, someone uses me as a scape goat. Because it happens. To non-criminals. History’s full of such cases.

Seriously, WOULD you want to be that person? Answer honestly. Do you honestly think it’s just to execute an innocent person?

[Apollyon]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

…Scripture as a whole is inspired by God, other parts indicate that God supports, indeed ordained capital punishment.

Scripture also lists crimes for which God ordains capital punishment. The list is rather broader than the half-dozen of your OP. If you’re going to argue for a scriptural basis for capital punishment shouldn’t you also be willing to argue that capital punishment is appropriate for all of the crimes listed?

[tim-n-va]

Yes, I think a greater good to society would be served by increasing the odds that someone who commits a capital crime were more likely to be put to death. Innocent people die all the time for the good of society. That is a cost I’d be willing to accept. I say that with the full knowledge that there is risk to me and members of my family.

[zephyr9]

@Marley23

You’re not posting in the Pit, so watch it. zephyr9, his username is MrDibble.

So touchy. Honest error. Nothing personal.

[tomndebb]

@zephyr9

So touchy.

And you needed to keep this going with a personal remark because. . .?

If a Mod has addressed the issue, it would be well to not try to pile on.

[ /Modding ]

[Starving_Artist]

@Der_Trihs

Sure they do. Or black, or gay, or whatever their particular bugaboo is.

Considerably more is involved in getting a capital murder conviction and execution than for the cops simply to point at someone and say, “He did it.” It takes, you know, convincing proof! And proof that is sufficient to convince not only a jury but decades of appellate judges too.

[zephyr9]

@Marley23

We understand what you’re saying. It doesn’t make sense, so it doesn’t work in this argument.
Yes, you’re in a very small minority on that.
This is neither philosophical nor moral. It’s pretty much just made up. The issue does not become amoral just because you assert it is. People who argue for executions on the grounds of revenge or for safety are very wrong as far as I’m concerned, but it’s an argument. Saying it’s no longer a moral issue just because is not an argument. It’s nonsense. (And for that matter, if this actually applies equally to animals and destroying a human life is so horrible, you should stop eating meat. If not, it seems you don’t care about the principle very much, which raises the question of why anybody else should.)

It’s not amoral just because “I say,” but because the person choosing to destroy other life put it on that level…HE defaulted HIMSELF out of basic laws of humanity. I’m not talking anything about revenge!
Not sure what the Pit is…but Im not here to be rude or mean…I want to engage w/people smarter than I am, and I am sure many of you are. This is the first time I ever have been on a forum like this. Forgive me for being so bold as to think I can spar w/the big boys.
Hey, I am open to having my mind changed. If I wasn’t, what would be the point of being here.
Mr. Dibble, I meant no disrespect.

[The_Man_In_Black]

@Der_Trihs

There’s people who think that killing people is always wrong, that killing people unnecessarily is always wrong, and there’s people who think that executions increase the murder rate. What he did or did not do is irrelevant to all of those positions.

Then lets release him in 21 years like Norway would. Maybe he can live next to you and your family. How would that make you feel?

[Guinastasia]

@tim-n-va

Yes, I think a greater good to society would be served by increasing the odds that someone who commits a capital crime were more likely to be put to death. Innocent people die all the time for the good of society. That is a cost I’d be willing to accept. I say that with the full knowledge that there is risk to me and members of my family.

I find that extremely disturbing.

[Typo_Negative]

@tim-n-va

The poor should cease to be poor if the are that worried about false conviction. I know lots of poor people who are just trying to get by who don’t use being poor as an excuse to stretch the bounds of legality.

They should probably cease being black too.

[tumbleddown]

@villa

It’s poor people who get wrongly sent to death row, and it is poor people who get wrongly convicted of murder when the death penalty is used as a threat to encourage people to take a plea resulting in life sentences.

@tim-n-va

The poor should cease to be poor if the are that worried about false conviction.

It’s not just poor people. It is disproportionately – to extremes – disproportionately poor black and Latinos who are sentenced to death vs. life inprisonment, to the extent that right now there is a near 1:1 ratio of whites to blacks on death rows nationwide. It is disproportionately black and Latino death row convicts who are exonerated by evidence uncovered years later.

@tim-n-va

No, I think people are confusing correlation with causality. The police don’t say “let’s go get a poor person and frame him so we can close this case”.

Maybe not, but poor people live in communities where violent crime is more common. That makes them far more readily subject to being misidentified by mistaken eyewitnesses, and more easily caught up in criminal activities in which they actually play no role. (By which I mean they know some or all of the people involved and may be closely related/affiliated but without any criminal acts.)

And once caught up in a case, they’re represented by public defenders who are well outpaced in time, resources and, in many cases, expertise, by prosecutors.

I’m saying that using poverty as an excuse to skirt the legalities of society carries risks and when someone makes that choice they assume that risk.

What excuse? And what risk? Are you actually trying to say that people who are poor and choose to remain poor (newsflash: class mobility is largely a myth, do the research) are making an affirmative decision to be more likely to be falsely convicted?

I’m saying that choosing a life of crime is what brings the risk of false convictions and using being poor to justify that life of crime is BS.

This is nonsense. By definition, a false conviction is not incumbent upon any prior acts.

[Marley23]

@zephyr9

It’s not amoral just because “I say,” but because the person choosing to destroy other life put it on that level…

Yes, it’s your say-so. What you’re saying is “killing is amoral, but killing this person isn’t amoral. The rules don’t apply to him anymore.” So yes, it is just because you say so. Logically, shouldn’t the person who executes the murderer also be fair game? I think that would be a problem.

[Starving_Artist]

Only in the sense that if logic tells us it’s wrong to keep someone imprisoned in a bedroom or a closet then it’s also wrong to keep the offender imprisoned in a jail cell.

[Norse]

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.

It’s from a fictional work (LOTR), but valid nonetheless

[Marley23]

@Starving_Artist

Only in the sense that if logic tells us it’s wrong to keep someone imprisoned in a bedroom or a closet then it’s also wrong to keep the offender imprisoned in a jail cell.

She’s not just arguing that it’s OK to kill them, she’s saying humanity’s moral code no longer applies to them. So I think it’s fair to ask why that’s not true of the executioners as well. If the answer is that the jury process washes the guilt off them, there’s the minor problem of the fact that we know how flawed that process is.

[Nars_Glinley]

@Marley23

She’s not just arguing that it’s OK to kill them, she’s saying humanity’s moral code no longer applies to them. So I think it’s fair to ask why that’s not true of the executioners as well. If the answer is that the jury process washes the guilt off them, there’s the minor problem of the fact that we know how flawed that process is.

Because “killing” <> “murder”. Murder has a very specific legal definition that is not met by the actions of the executioner. That’s why we don’t question self-defense either.

[Guinastasia]

@Starving_Artist

Only in the sense that if logic tells us it’s wrong to keep someone imprisoned in a bedroom or a closet then it’s also wrong to keep the offender imprisoned in a jail cell.

Or, we keep them locked up as to keep society safe.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Guinastasia

Or, we keep them locked up as to keep society safe.

Can we execute people to keep society safe?