# What cultures \*really\* do consider fat and/or obese women as beautiful or preferred? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925 "2010-07-16T16:14:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/41 "2010-07-17T13:32:21Z")
Botswana. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/42 "2010-07-17T14:09:54Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Perhaps you are thinking about [Mauri](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25DxHXz8ZUQ)[tania](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6VrzGWCq2I) or [Nigeria](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5QypK_0Ofg)? (last link is nsfw) > > African countries are not interchangeable. Interesting that the second video is preceded by a McDonald’s ad. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/43 "2010-07-17T15:04:56Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve always wondered if paintings from previous eras really portray the ideal of beauty of the time, or if there was a (for lack of a better word) political aspect of it. Could it be that painters were encouraged to portray their patrons’ wives’ body type as the ideal, even if it wasn’t the _real_ ideal? > > I’ve read many footnotes in Shakespeare plays that point out how The Bard was pandering to his queen in this passage or another. Why would painting be any different? I am not sure that flattering a man’s wife’s sexual desirability was all that common a tactic for most of history. Having a powerful, rich husband was a credit to a woman, but landing a sexually desirable woman as a wife was not really a credit to a man, or at least not to a noteworthy degree. ---
**Author:** ![notsoheavyd3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@notsoheavyd3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notsoheavyd3)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/44 "2010-07-17T15:58:55Z")
Wow, around 50 posts and nobody cracks a joke about cannibals prefer fat women. (Because fat=flavor 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/45 "2010-07-17T16:15:00Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > No, smooth skin is one area where all human cultures essentially agree. Pockmarks are a sign of disease. Whether most people have them or most people don’t, they’re never desirable. Which doesn’t negate my point. Smooth skin (lack of pockmarks/disease, lack of sun damage, etc.) is difficult to obtain when you don’t have medical care, don’t have access to expensive creams, have to work in the fields in the sun, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/46 "2010-07-17T18:03:14Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Which doesn’t negate my point. Smooth skin (lack of pockmarks/disease, lack of sun damage, etc.) is difficult to obtain when you don’t have medical care, don’t have access to expensive creams, have to work in the fields in the sun, etc. Smooth skin is desirable _regardless_ of the ease or difficulty of getting it. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/47 "2010-07-17T18:44:14Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I am not sure that flattering a man’s wife’s sexual desirability was all that common a tactic for most of history. Having a powerful, rich husband was a credit to a woman, but landing a sexually desirable woman as a wife was not really a credit to a man, or at least not to a noteworthy degree. Well if we go back to colonial times the criteria for “Good wife you got there!” kudos seem to be - 1: Fecundity 2: Keeping a tidy house 3: Being domestically industrious - sewing / weaving / gardening etc 4: Being a good cook Having a really good looking wife might actually be somewhat problematic as a really beautiful woman might feel that she more options in life than being a hard working farm wife. ---
**Author:** ![PsyXe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@PsyXe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PsyXe)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/48 "2010-07-17T19:07:06Z")
In Mauritania the practice is called [leblouh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leblouh). The Wiki article does refer to “obesity” as the desired outcome, so the idea isn’t simply to be curvy. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/49 "2010-07-17T19:24:09Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > That’s like deciding that the all the flemish liked’em [thin and bug-eyed](http://www.salvatorefiorillo.it/Ragazza_con_orecchino_di_perla(Vermeer).jpg) because you are just looking at Vermeer’s paintings. You know, I was going to disagree with you, but I did a review of the 36 Vermeer paintings I have in my online gallery, and tried to categorize the women portrayed in them (main characters only) Thin: 21 (est. BMI \< 22) Average: 17 (est. BMI 22-26) Full figured: 1 (est. BMI 26-30) Obese (est. BMI \> 30) Edited: entered numbers incorrectly…twice. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/50 "2010-07-17T19:49:46Z")
[Interesting pic](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/13.jpg) from MSNBC’s [this week in pictures.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/slideshow.html) > [@](#): > > The first ladies of France and nine African nations pose at the Elysee Palace in Paris after a meeting Tuesday. From left: Antoinette Sassou-Nguesso of Congo, Chantal Campaore of Burkina Fasso, Monique Bozize of the Central African Republic, Sylvia Bongo Ondimba of Gabon, Chantal de Souza Yayi of Benin, Tekber Mint Melainine Ould Ahmed of Mauritania, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy of France, Chantal Biya of Cameroon, Lobbo Traore Toure of Mali, Viviane Wade of Senegal and Fati Alzouima Djibo Salou of Niger. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/51 "2010-07-17T20:57:13Z")
Somehow I doubt that many cultures have found morbidly obese to be the epitome of beauty. Our reaction to the physical form of the other gender is not just an arbitrary sociologic entity; it also has evolutionary fitness ramifications. Statistically a morbidly obese women is less likely to be as fecund as a woman with a BMI in the normal to overweight grouping. And the underweight may be completely anovulatory. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/52 "2010-07-18T01:05:48Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Interesting pic](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/13.jpg) from MSNBC’s [this week in pictures.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/slideshow.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > The first ladies of France and nine African nations pose at the Elysee Palace in Paris after a meeting Tuesday. From left: Antoinette Sassou-Nguesso of Congo, Chantal Campaore of Burkina Fasso, Monique Bozize of the Central African Republic, Sylvia Bongo Ondimba of Gabon, Chantal de Souza Yayi of Benin, Tekber Mint Melainine Ould Ahmed of Mauritania, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy of France, Chantal Biya of Cameroon, Lobbo Traore Toure of Mali, Viviane Wade of Senegal and Fati Alzouima Djibo Salou of Niger. The only interesting thing I see is that they say the first ladies of “France and 9 African countries” are there, but there are 11 women listed, and 11 in the photo. Is one of them not the first lady of the place she’s from? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/53 "2010-07-18T04:32:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Well, I was in a rush and that seemed to be the most information rich page produced by a quick googling of the words “Hottentot Venus,” dredged from the depths of my memory. I did not take the time to do more than skim it very quickly for a few relevant points, or to vet it for racism, or to look at any any other pages on the site. > > Sorry. No problem, but you didn’t even provide any points or commentary on why an enslaved Khoisan woman who was shipped to Europe and exhibited in a 19th century “freak show” should be at all relevant in this thread. You just gave a link to some wackjob racialist. > [@](#): > > But, replete with nutty racism as it may be, the page does contain some information relevant to the OP’s question. **The point is that at least some of the most desired women of this culture are distinctly fat (albeit in a quite peculiar way).** If you want a less ideologically contaminated (but rather sketchy) account of the Hottentot Venus, there is always [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hottentot_Venus). (bolding mine) Perhaps you should directly quote where the wackjob makes this point then provide credible citations to it’s veracity. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/54 "2010-07-18T07:19:35Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > The only interesting thing I see is that they say the first ladies of “France and 9 African countries” are there, but there are 11 women listed, and 11 in the photo. Is one of them not the first lady of the place she’s from? The “interesting” part is that the pic does validate to some degree the large body ideal by some cultures referenced in the OP. The fact that many of these African first ladies are at the top of the social order for their countries, and assumedly represent a near ideal of womanhood for their respective cultures are hefty women pushing (IMO) 200-250 lbs. The first lady of France reflecting the French ideal is half their size. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/55 "2010-07-18T11:52:52Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > The only interesting thing I see is that they say the first ladies of “France and 9 African countries” are there, but there are 11 women listed, and 11 in the photo. Is one of them not the first lady of the place she’s from? Perhaps some of the countries permit polygamy, making it possible for a single head of state/government to have more than one first lady. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/56 "2010-07-19T05:39:29Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The “interesting” part is that the pic does validate to some degree the large body ideal by some cultures referenced in the OP. The fact that many of these African first ladies are at the top of the social order for their countries, and **assumedly represent a near ideal of womanhood for their respective cultures** are hefty women pushing (IMO) 200-250 lbs. The first lady of France reflecting the French ideal is half their size. That’s a hell of an assumption. And most of them aren’t that heavy, and a few look as trim as Mme. Sarkozy. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/57 "2010-07-19T07:48:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Interesting pic](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/13.jpg) from MSNBC’s [this week in pictures.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/16/the_week_in_pictures/slideshow.html) Interesting, indeed. It made apparent to me that if the norm of beauty was “a bit plumpy”, Sarkozy would look strinkingly unattractive/unhealthy. A bit like an anorexic girl looks to us now. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/58 "2010-07-19T09:16:47Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > That’s a hell of an assumption. And most of them aren’t that heavy, and a few look as trim as Mme. Sarkozy. I’d pretty familiar with what larger women weigh. It’s more than you think. If we could put them on a scale I think you’d lose that bet pretty badly. The larger women in that pic are solidly in the 200-250 lb range. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/59 "2010-07-19T10:32:46Z")
> [@nuggz](#): > > Before I got married I visited my (now ex) husbands family, who was Egyptian. I was 5’3", 125 lbs. About a year after we married, we went back, and I was probably 145ish. EVERYONE made comments about how “fat” I was and how “happy” I must be and how “great” I looked. In the wonderful Cairo Trilogy by Naguib Mahfouz, there’s one character who everyone describes as being very beautiful with her only flaw being that she is too thin. They are constantly trying to fatten her up a bit. No, I don’t think they are trying to fatten her up to “obesity”, but coming from western culture it was still striking for me to read that, as at least “officially” in western culture thinner is always better. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925/60 "2010-07-20T21:29:42Z")
Mauritania is the only example I can think of. Obesity (and big bellies) are much desired in the traditional culture, to the point that young girls are tortured to achieve it. In much of the world and through much of history, a fuller, ‘womanly’ figure was much appreciated. But a sexual or societal ideal of truly fat women is almost non-existent. An body easily identifiable as feminine means a curvy body (bust, waist, and hips well-defined) and that seems to be most desirable to the vast majority of men in the world. Being fat or very thin usually diminishes these curves. It’s also obvious that youth is most appealing to human men, and younger women are always more slender than older women and have slimmer waistlines due to their hormonal balance. I do think that the current Western (and majority Asian) beauty ideal for grown women of extreme slenderness to the point of simulated starvation/prepubescence is bizarre, and atypical compared to the rest of history. It’s notable I think that we only started worshiping this body type after breast implants became so commonplace. There’s no way tiny hips, thighs, and waists would be the media ideal of sexuality these days if all the women who had them also had the small breasts that are most common with very low body weight. The fake boobs (or sometimes real ones!) create that exaggeratedly feminine look that men find so sexy (whether the top or bottom, or both, is exaggerated in comparison to the waist doesn’t seem to matter to them too much). > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > It was true in western Europe only a couple hundred years ago. > > Look at the women in painting by Rubens, for example. Nowadays, they would be considered overweight, even close to obese. But back then, that was what was considered the height of feminine beauty. > > (Supposedly, it may trace back to the fact that most people didn’t get enough to eat, so they were positively skinny. A person being fat showed that they were well-off and better than the peasants.) Rubens was one guy who liked to paint somewhat larger naked ladies (I wouldn’t call them fat though). His art wasn’t typical for the period and I’d be interested to see any other evidence that so-called ‘Rubenesque’ women were the beauty ideal for that time period. > [@](#): > > The fact that many of these African first ladies are at the top of the social order for their countries, and assumedly represent a near ideal of womanhood for their respective cultures are hefty women pushing (IMO) 200-250 lbs. The first lady of France reflecting the French ideal is half their size. This isn’t a very good example either IMO. These are the wives of powerful African men, but I don’t think it follows that they are the ideal of feminine beauty in their country! That’s certainly not true for any [American](http://0.tqn.com/d/marriage/1/0/t/Q/HS514Ambassador.jpeg)[first](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/22/article-1126490-03225DF5000005DC-30_468x516.jpg)[ladies](http://blog.emap.com/wgsn/files/2009/01/laura-bush.jpg). Our President’s wives tend to be average weight, around the same age as their husbands, conservative, and rather mannish (super-short hairstyles and boxy outfits are the norm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-cultures-really-do-consider-fat-and-or-obese-women-as-beautiful-or-preferred/546925.md?page=2)