# What decisions do English speakers make subconsciously? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 23, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655 "2022-10-23T02:49:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/121 "2022-10-28T21:39:44Z")
Probably the most famous “rule”: “I before E, except after C or when sounded as A, as in neighbour and weigh. And weird is just weird.” That, of course, ignores exceptions like eight, vein, and veil. In fact, as a rule, it’s useless. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/122 "2022-10-28T21:43:55Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Hungarian, like Finnish, Estonian, and Sami, is a Uralic languages and not Indo-European so that may be one reason. Sure. And, of course, that’s one of the first things you learn when you begin to learn it. It’s also said to be one of the hardest, if not the hardest, language for an English speaker to learn that is written in the Roman alphabet. (Polish also often comes up in this regard.) It can be completely bewildering, as the languages are structured quite differently. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/123 "2022-10-28T21:45:56Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Probably the most famous “rule”: “I before E, except after C or when sounded as A, as in neighbour and weigh. And weird is just weird.” > > That, of course, ignores exceptions like eight, vein, and veil. In fact, as a rule, it’s useless. I think that rule has been shown to have more exceptions than adherents. Which makes it a very strange usage of the word “rule” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/124 "2022-10-28T21:47:31Z")
I would really doubt that to literally be the case, but there’s enough exceptions that it’s useless. (Well, I admit, I do use it from time to time to remind myself that it’s _receive_ and _receipt_ and stuff like that, so I guess I do sometimes find myself calling back to it.) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/125 "2022-10-28T21:47:51Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve been saying for years that the English language is the greatest toy ever invented. My favourite quote on the capriciousness and impermenance of the English language is > “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” > –James D. Nicoll ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/126 "2022-10-28T21:51:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I would really doubt that to literally be the case, but there’s enough exceptions that it’s useless. (Well, I admit, I do use it from time to time to remind myself that it’s _receive_ and _receipt_ and stuff like that, so I guess I do sometimes find myself calling back to it.) [here’s one article](https://www.rd.com/article/i-before-e-rule/) that refers to it. It seems like the “except after c” bit is the real problem. But yeah. Which ever way you slice it it seems to be pretty useless as a rule. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/127 "2022-10-28T22:03:43Z")
Nice! So new rule is “i before e and you’ll be right 75% of the time.” ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/128 "2022-10-28T22:06:36Z")
Yes, I think that is the English language in a nutshell. “here is a rule, just assume it is useless and make it up as you go along” ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/129 "2022-10-28T22:08:51Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Probably the most famous “rule”: “I before E, except after C or when sounded as A, as in neighbour and weigh. And weird is just weird.” > > That, of course, ignores exceptions like eight, vein, and veil. In fact, as a rule, it’s useless. There are exceptions, but not _eight_ or _vein_. Those fit the “sound like A” part of the rule. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/130 "2022-10-28T22:11:02Z")
That said, a critique I have of that particular study is that the rule, as I’ve always understood it, really only applies to words that have a single vowel sound that is spelled by either “ei” or “ie.” Granted, that is not mentioned in the rule. But using a word like _icier_ or _fancier_ or _science_ as exceptions is going to inflate the “except after c” part. Any adjective ending in -cy is going to have -ier and -iest variants that will prove as exceptions to the rule, though I personally have never thought of applying this “rule” to such words. But, yes, to explain it, all the exceptions, etc. – better just not bother teaching it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/131 "2022-10-29T00:20:50Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Probably the most famous “rule”: “I before E, except after C or when sounded as A, as in neighbour and weigh. And weird is just weird.” > > That, of course, ignores exceptions like eight, vein, and veil. In fact, as a rule, it’s useless. You do realize that in all three of those words the sound is A so they are not exceptions to the rule you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/132 "2022-10-29T00:36:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > I’m not sure it is quite such a general rule. > > I’m not sure that there is such a thing in English; at least, such a thing without so many exceptions as to make it not very useful. One of the other members of a forum where I hang out uses the .sig “There are no rules in English, only guidance. Some guidance looks like a rule; it probably isn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/133 "2022-10-29T00:44:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There’s also the difference between being “the shit,” “a shit,” and simply “shit.” I’m just browsing this days old thread now but this standup bit perfectly illustrates the complexities of the word ‘shit.’ Caution: Contains mentions of the word ‘shit.’ [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/kXH3HDE9Czo/hqdefault.jpg "the word shit") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXH3HDE9Czo) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/134 "2022-10-29T01:19:46Z")
Ha ha. That was great. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/135 "2022-10-29T02:16:07Z")
Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/136 "2022-10-29T17:48:59Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > I’ll reiterate my original post -ic suffix tends to pull accent towards end of word. I think the rule is that -i suffixes (-ic, -ity, -ify, -tion, -ial, -ian) pull the stress to the syllable preceding them. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/137 "2022-10-29T18:55:28Z")
That same comedian has a similar routine about various meanings of the word “ass.” Very funny. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/138 "2022-10-30T00:17:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m not sure that there is such a thing in English; at least, such a thing without so many exceptions as to make it not very useful. Every native English word, other than those that begin with a prefix, is stressed on the first syllable. No exceptions. (“Native” here means a word that was not borrowed from another language.) An apparent exception is “enough”, but the first syllable was once a prefix “ge-”. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/139 "2022-10-30T00:42:49Z")
Here’s another exceptionless rule: No English content words, (“content words” meaning words other than function words like “this”, “there”, “the”), begin with the voiced “th” sound. That means that you can’t have a name in English that begins with that sound. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655/140 "2022-10-30T01:12:14Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > “Native” here means a word that was not borrowed from another language. How much of modern English is made up of words that weren’t borrowed from another language? They’re English words now. And I very much doubt that most English speakers know which words are derived from Old English and which aren’t. > [@hibernicus](#): > > Here’s another exceptionless rule: No English content words, (“content words” meaning words other than function words like “this”, “there”, “the”), begin with the voiced “th” sound. That means that you can’t have a name in English that begins with that sound. Thorn? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-decisions-do-english-speakers-make-subconsciously/973655.md?page=8)