# What defenses are currently employed against affirmative-action/gender cheaters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968 "2019-03-11T19:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/21 "2019-03-12T14:26:47Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > Brother’s friend’s roommate had a boyfriend who was from Africa. Applied for a scholarship at a US state university and got it as he was from Africa and the school thought he would be black. He was mixed, which was obvious, but not “black enough” and was rolled over to another scholarship program. Requirements for acceptance to the specific scholarship program were updated. It’s hard to evaluate what the actual situation might have been from a fifth-hand story. It would be interesting to see what the actual wording of the scholarship was. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I could also see an issue with using “African-American” as a code for Black. What if you are 100% caucasian from South Africa or a Moor from northern Africa? My brother’s wife is a white South African (English, Norwegian, and Boer ancestry), and in that sense my white nephews are African-Americans (not of course the actual meaning of the term in the US). On the other hand, my sister’s husband was a black Guyanese, so although my niece and nephew are black they are not African-American in the sense the term was originally employed, of being descended from slaves brought to the US from Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/22 "2019-03-12T14:36:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There was some forgettable college hijinks movie in the 80’s where someone pretended to be black to get a minority scholarship to Harvard(?). (“Soul Man”?) Yes, **Soul Man** with C Thomas Howell. A spectacular film in that it manages to simultaneously rail against racism while perpetuating the horrific racism it is railing against. He ends up having to pay back the money. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I could also see an issue with using “African-American” as a code for Black. What if you are 100% caucasian from South Africa or a Moor from northern Africa? I used to work in university admissions and dealt with overseas students. I got the university to change the (self-reported) racial category on the application form from “African-American” to “Black/African-American” on the basis that there was no category for black non-Americans. This wasn’t scholarship-related, by the way; it was just for demographic statistics purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/23 "2019-03-12T14:48:42Z")
I was curious how this is handled in reality. So the requirements for The Frederick Douglass Bicentennial Scholarship Program from the United Negro College Fund include “be enrolled full-time as a rising senior at any accredited public or private four-year HBCU”. It says nothing about actually being black. On the other hand, the UNCF/Koch Scholars Program lists among the requirements that the applicant be African-American or black. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/24 "2019-03-12T14:50:10Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Well, that is part of the question, kind of. Surely there is some you-know-it-when-you-see-it standard in admissions offices that would not accept some blond-haired, blue-eyed pale-skinned applicant trying to claim black affirmative action status as someone who looks black and is black? Bullshit. I have a friend who is black, yet is very light-skinned. His wife is Irish. Their 3 kids run the gamut from very black to white-as-a-sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/25 "2019-03-12T14:57:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (\*\*\*Not \*\*\*a political debate: ) > Suppose someone who is obviously white… [It is obvious that your premise is flawed from the start.](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1WPZB_enUS807US807&q=light+skinned+african-americans&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwivxujU7fzgAhWosaQKHYTJChQQ7Al6BAgFEBs&biw=1680&bih=907) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/26 "2019-03-12T15:06:18Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was curious how this is handled in reality. So the requirements for The Frederick Douglass Bicentennial Scholarship Program from the United Negro College Fund include “be enrolled full-time as a rising senior at any accredited public or private four-year HBCU”. It says nothing about actually being black. Given that Historically Black Colleges and Universities routinely accept white students, and that now some are even majority white, I would think that would mean that that scholarship is simply open to whites as well as blacks. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/27 "2019-03-12T17:49:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t think of any “defenses” that aren’t/wouldn’t be overly intrusive and/or designed to discriminate. Isn’t any requirement/criteria/standard in and of itself discriminating? Even randomly choosing from all applications discriminates against those who didn’t apply. Where the line(s) are drawn is the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/28 "2019-03-12T17:52:07Z")
But this isn’t a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/29 "2019-03-12T17:52:12Z")
We’re debating? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/30 "2019-03-12T18:14:39Z")
That’s debatable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/31 "2019-03-12T18:16:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (\*\*\*Not \*\*\*a political debate: ) > Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of “Smith” or “Miller” isn’t black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways) > > Likewise, in organizations that currently permit people to use the restroom of the gender they identify with, what safeguards do they employ to verify that someone who looks 100% male but goes into the female restroom is in fact doing so out of genuine identification as XX and not just because he wants to be a gender troll? You are what you identify as. That’s the law (exception is being a legal member of a Federally recognized tribe, but that has other benefits and issues). There was a girl in one of my classes, blondish hair, freckles, she Ids as black, turns out she was 1/4 black. But he family lived in a black neighborhood, etc. Who are you to say who is “obviously white”? Next: When and IF that becomes a _real issue,_ except in the minds of bigots and homophobes, we can discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/32 "2019-03-12T19:25:05Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > That’s debatable. “look, I came here for an argument.” “Sorry. It’s ‘being hit on the head’ lessons in here.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/33 "2019-03-12T19:50:12Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Isn’t any requirement/criteria/standard in and of itself discriminating? > Even randomly choosing from all applications discriminates against those who didn’t apply. > Where the line(s) are drawn is the debate. > [@Chingon](#): > > But this isn’t a debate. **Moderating** Right. Stick to factual responses. If you want to debate, take it to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/34 "2019-03-12T20:16:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This wasn’t scholarship-related, by the way; it was just for demographic statistics purposes. Isn’t that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago. (Scholarship programs, being private groups, can discriminate as they choose.) Note that ‘cheating’ is possible on nearly any such restrictions, and usually it would cost more to set up a program to catch it than it’s worth. People can be really inventive. At one time, our City added a requirement that police officers had to live within the city limits. When preparing a mailing of sample ballots to registered voters, I noticed 6 police officers, all ‘residing’ in a small studio apartment in the city. Two of them were married, but their spouses were registered to vote at houses in the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/35 "2019-03-13T09:30:28Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Isn’t that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago. (Scholarship programs, being private groups, can discriminate as they choose.) As I recall, it was to be able to ensure that there wasn’t any discrimination in the admissions process. Ironically, before I joined they had tried to prevent discrimination by simply not asking for data on race…and then got penalized because they couldn’t demonstrate they weren’t discriminating because they didn’t have any data on race. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/36 "2019-03-13T13:40:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > As I recall, it was to be able to ensure that there wasn’t any discrimination in the admissions process. Ironically, before I joined they had tried to prevent discrimination by simply not asking for data on race…and then got penalized because they couldn’t demonstrate they weren’t discriminating because they didn’t have any data on race. I can’t believe they didn’t give your school’s faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in “Aryan Nation Weekly.” They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a “good fit for the school.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/37 "2019-03-13T14:23:10Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Isn’t that what such questions are for now, in most government entities? Because I thought the US Supreme Court killed affirmative action programs in college admissions years ago. Affirmative action was upheld in Fisher v. Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/38 "2019-03-13T14:38:18Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I can’t believe they didn’t give your school’s faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in “Aryan Nation Weekly.” They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a “good fit for the school.” **Moderating** Let’s save the snark. **Gyrate’s** post didn’t imply any of that. In fact, most schools _do_ ask such questions in order to have data to demonstrate that they don’t discriminate. Whether or not such questions prevent discrimination is another issue. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/39 "2019-03-13T14:46:22Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I can’t believe they didn’t give your school’s faultless program to eliminate discrimination the credit it deserves. Yeah, no school could possibly discriminate without race data. No school would ever discriminate against minorities by merely giving legacy preference to children of alumni, restricting their on-campus recruiting efforts to segregation academies in the south, and advertising only in “Aryan Nation Weekly.” They might even be able to dispense with the in-person interviews designed to ensure that little Charleston Langefordian Gillmontburger VII is a “good fit for the school.” Mod note aside, I think you’re overestimating the target population of the university I worked at. If anything, top priority was given to anyone of any race who could tick the “Are you good at football?” box. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/40 "2019-03-13T15:15:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > Let’s save the snark. **Gyrate’s** post didn’t imply any of that. In fact, most schools _do_ ask such questions in order to have data to demonstrate that they don’t discriminate. Whether or not such questions prevent discrimination is another issue. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator My apologies for the heavy-handed snark. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Mod note aside, I think you’re overestimating the target population of the university I worked at. If anything, top priority was given to anyone of any race who could tick the “Are you good at football?” box. I wasn’t assuming anything about your school’s recruiting targets but I did want to push back against the idea that we can solve systemic racism in this country by allowing white people to pretend that “they don’t see color.” Failing to collect data about how minorities are treated is both a symptom and a cause of the problem. I am sorry that I harshly tried to make my point at your expense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968.md?page=3)