# What defenses are currently employed against affirmative-action/gender cheaters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968 "2019-03-11T19:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/61 "2019-03-17T07:26:08Z")
At the two universities I currently know about, one accepts a racial statement at the time of application, the other assess applicants. In either case, false statement or false representation would be fraud and, eventually, a criminal offense – which would be a bad thing to have on your academic record. One of those universities used to have a much looser system, which was open to abuse, back when far fewer applicants self-identified on scholarship/entrance applications. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/62 "2019-03-17T20:52:18Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > At the two universities I currently know about, one accepts a racial statement at the time of application, the other assess applicants. In either case, false statement or false representation would be fraud and, eventually, a criminal offense – which would be a bad thing to have on your academic record. > > One of those universities used to have a much looser system, which was open to abuse, back when far fewer applicants self-identified on scholarship/entrance applications. How could you have a case of fraud or a false statement? “I identify as Black”. How do you prove that wrong? I suppose if he filed at other colleges recently picking other races, maybe. What abuse could occur? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/63 "2019-03-17T22:20:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How could you have a case of fraud or a false statement? “I identify as Black”. How do you prove that wrong? I suppose if he filed at other colleges recently picking other races, maybe. > > What abuse could occur? I didn’t make it clear that I’m actually in Aus, (because the easy part of the answer to the OP didn’t require that). “Could _eventually_ be fraud”. For a fraud conviction, you’d have to prove that the statement was fraudulently made. In the context of a person who continued to make false affirmative-action claims, which have been disputed. So there would be two parts: first demonstrating that the claim was false, then demonstrating that the false claim was fraudulent. In the only actually fraudulent claim I’ve heard about, both would have been fairly easy, but that was back in the day. Now, just having to make a signed statement would discourage such an easily disprovable claim. The part that’s relevant to Aus is that “eligible for affirmative action” is commonly a defined condition. If it’s medical or social, you need signed statements from third parties describing the effect of medical or social handicap. If it’s race, you need to either claim patrimony, or claim community membership. “Black” isn’t an automatic pass. Patrimony and community membership are checkable claims that might come back to bite you. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/64 "2019-05-27T05:44:26Z")
Well, looks like there is now a case of it: > **[Harvard lawsuit, SAT, Rick Singer...where will affirmative action strike next?](https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=12255)** > > 0 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/65 "2019-05-27T06:53:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose someone who is obviously white lies that they are black, Hispanic, Arab, Native-American, etc. on college applications in order to try to edge in on admissions on affirmative action - what defenses do colleges such as Harvard or Ivy Leagues/MIT/Stanford etc. employ against it? Without a face-to-face interview or requiring photos on admissions, how would they know that someone with the surname of “Smith” or “Miller” isn’t black instead of white? (Would be harder with Hispanic or other racial surnames, but there would still be ways) You don’t need to have a surname that originated in Spain (mainland or colonies) to be Hispanic. Alberto Fujimori, Selma Hayek and Shakira Mebarak are all Hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/66 "2019-05-27T18:26:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Well, looks like there is now a case of it: > [Campus Reform the #1 Source for College News](https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=12255&fbclid=IwAR2tpGpoTD0_eOmAEnqoLR0GzyPZ5XbRjvLe6tNcSFeBUtL7AG08_F36aE4) Not really. That crook urged parents to put “black” etc instead of “white”.:rolleyes: If indeed they did, there is nothing anyone could do. What DNA test would you administer? ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/67 "2019-05-27T20:49:28Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I was curious how this is handled in reality. So the requirements for The Frederick Douglass Bicentennial Scholarship Program from the United Negro College Fund include “be enrolled full-time as a rising senior at any accredited public or private four-year HBCU”. It says nothing about actually being black. On the other hand, the UNCF/Koch Scholars Program lists among the requirements that the applicant be African-American or black. interesting fact that I heard or read some years back that there are some HBCU’s that are majority White, I think in Tennessee ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/68 "2019-05-27T20:52:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are what you identify as. That’s the law (exception is being a legal member of a Federally recognized tribe, but that has other benefits and issues). There was a girl in one of my classes, blondish hair, freckles, she Ids as black, turns out she was 1/4 black. But he family lived in a black neighborhood, etc. Who are you to say who is “obviously white”? > > Next: > When and IF that becomes a _real issue,_ except in the minds of bigots and homophobes, we can discuss it. excuse me, didn’t you hear about white woman head of NAACP in Washington state who claimed to be Black until she was outed and forced to resign ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/69 "2019-05-27T21:21:25Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > excuse me, didn’t you hear about white woman head of NAACP in Washington state who claimed to be Black until she was outed and forced to resign \*\*Not by any law. \*\*She _resigned_ due to the public outcry. In fact the NAACP stood behind her. So, if someone self- identified as black, say, but both parents said they were white, a college would be on dubious grounds for expelling. > **[Rachel Dolezal | NAACP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal#NAACP)** > > Dolezal was elected president of the Spokane chapter of the NAACP in 2014, replacing James Wilburn. During her brief tenure, she was noted for revitalizing the chapter. Her resignation from the civil rights organization was announced on June 15, 2015, after the controversy surrounding her racial identity became public. > **[The NAACP stands behind one of its leaders accused of 'pretending' to be black](https://www.businessinsider.com/an-naacp-leader-in-washington-state-was-just-accused-of-pretending-to-be-black-2015-6)** > > Rachel Dolezal's family says she's been lying for years. \*The revelations about Dolezal’s ancestry and her other claims provoked a range of reactions. Dolezal’s critics argued that she committed cultural appropriation[100] and fraud.[100][101] On the other hand, others asserted that Dolezal’s asserted identity should be respected.[102][103][104][105] Angela Schwendiman, a colleague of Dolezal’s at Eastern Washington University, expressed her belief that Dolezal perceived herself as black internally, and that “she was only trying to match how she felt on the inside with her outside.”[106] Similarly Cedric Bradley, a colleague of hers at Spokane’s NAACP, suggested it mattered little to him whether Dolezal was actually black or not. What did matter to him was her proven track record in social justice work. “It’s not about black and white,” Bradley stated, “it’s about what we can do for the community.”[107] Psychologist Halford Fairchild said “Rachel Dolezal is black because she identifies as black. Her identity was authentic, as far as I could tell.”[108] Sociologist Ann Morning also defended Dolezal, saying: “We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances.”[109] \* ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/70 "2019-05-27T21:23:05Z")
Re **Velocity’s** link-A slightly less biased cite would be nice: > [@](#): > > Campus Reform exposes the liberal bias and abuse against conservatives on America’s colleges and universities. > > As a Campus Reform reader, you know about the abuse taking place at our nation’s higher education institutions, and you know how important it is to bring these stories to light. > > College campuses are no longer bastions of higher learning. Leftist professors indoctrinate students with their agendas. They even silence conservative students with their attempts to suppress free speech. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968/71 "2019-05-28T18:25:54Z")
> [@](#): > > College campuses are no longer bastions of higher learning. Leftist professors indoctrinate students with their agendas. They even silence conservative students with their attempts to suppress free speech. That sounds a lot like the complaint I heard in college… in 1973. Obviously it’s work so well that the USA elects only socialists today. Again - if it is used to obtain a financial benefit, it’s fraud. Even if it would be difficult to prove criminal fraud, presumably a civil suit to recover the money would be a lot easier to win - “preponderance of evidence”. Can the perp, like Dolezal did, show a long history of identifying as such or was it a bran new claim aimed solely at the benefit? Also, if the college decided to expel someone for academic fraud, it could take a few years to follow through with a lawsuit - years during which the student probably could not get admission to any other college with a record for cheating, etc. Then if they won, they would still have a legal bill… and presumably the risk is also that being expelled half-way through the year does not mean any tuition refund - and any student loans are due once you’re out of college… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-defenses-are-currently-employed-against-affirmative-action-gender-cheaters/830968.md?page=3)