# What did communists in the West think about the fact that communist states like the Soviet Union or Cuba held people prisoners and didn’t let them leave the country **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280 "2024-05-30T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/61 "2024-06-01T14:05:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s not unique to communism; Robespierre made that same argument in defence of terror as necessary for a revolution Yeah but a key point is that his opinion was very influential on Marx and the other communist thinkers. He didn’t think Robespierre and the terrorists went too far, he thought he didn’t go far enough and the revolution was cut short by Napoleon and other reactionary forces before it could become a true proletarian revolution. He was very clear that he thought terror (in the sense of authoritarian state violence) was a crucial part of the revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/62 "2024-06-01T14:48:01Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@Smapti](#): > > > > As long as you weren’t Armenian. > > Mostly a problem from the late-19th century on, i.e. during the rise of ethnic nationalism. The early Ottoman empire was not an ethno-state, the very late 19th century empire increasingly was. Go back to the 17th century and an ethnic Armenian was (briefly) Grand Vizier and married a Sultan’s daughter. Or you have the Dadians who were Ottoman industrial giants during the Tanzimat period in the mid-19th century (particularly in the area of gunpowder production). There was a reason why the urban Armenians of Istanbul were basically untouched in the moment by the Armenian Genocide. Sure, but earlier in history before Turkish nationalism took off means you’re also pre-Tanzimat, and in the pre-Tanzimat Ottoman Empire religion was more important than it would become later. Non-Turkish Muslims, Armenians and other Christians, as well as Jews all fit neatly into the Dhimma system. How well did the Ottomans get on with people who weren’t “People of the Book”? I know there were a lot of massacres of Yazidis, but they’re kind of a special case because sometimes Muslims view them as apostates rather than as a separate religion (and those massacres were ordered by individual muftis or sometimes sultans). I think Zoroastrians did better under Ottoman rule? But I also don’t think very many of them actually came under Ottoman rule? As best as I could tell the Turks of that part of the world were pretty thoroughly Islamized (though not everywhere, since there are Tengri Turks in Siberia to this day) by the time that the Ottomans arose; but if there were large numbers of Tengri Turks under Ottoman rule, I can find no sources mentioning them. All that to say that I’m not sure we can tell how well the Ottomans would have treated the Native Americans, because expanding into large swathes of land inhabited by people who follow non-Abrahamic religions is not something that they ever did in real life. It’s a novel situation for them. But if the Native Americans widely adopted Islam (or even Christianity, if the Ottomans aren’t the first on the scene, so to speak) then I agree that they’d have likely done better under Ottoman rule. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/63 "2024-06-01T14:49:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It does not look to me to be particularly more free than a communist system, just different players deciding what we want. 🤨 Because not every imaginable product is on the market, capitalist societies are not particularly more free than communist ones? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/64 "2024-06-01T14:50:59Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Are you saying that Elon Musk deciding to not offer you a Tesla without a touch screen is the same “lack of freedom” as Stalin not allowing you to voice your opinions or leave the country and killing you if you disobey? To-may-to, to-mah-to, amiright? Eta: but actually, it occurs to me that the posts we are responding to are in fact a perfect answer to the question posed by the OP. A real-time example of how people in the West can defend Communism: “Western freedom is an illusion, we are no freer than those under Communist rule”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/65 "2024-06-01T15:10:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > All that to say that I’m not sure we can tell how well the Ottomans would have treated the Native Americans So it’s a complete side track but there is a sort of analogy in their treatment of Montengro which was Europes last tribal society. The Ottomans spent a long time attempting to pacify the province and probably during that time I’d guess your average Montengran would swap places with your average native American under US rule. Of course they ultimately failed which made a big difference for the outcome for the native population of the two places ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/66 "2024-06-01T15:54:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a Communist state were functional at providing for the needs and happiness of its people (and there’s another sticky wicket - Communism as an idealogy only really seems to prosper in countries that are already poor and lacking enough resources to support the population) then there’d be no call for selfishness at an individual level, but that would require either a government of incorruptible and selfless public servants or a justice system that cannot be bought and can root out all corruption wherever it may be found, neither of which are practical given the state of human nature. All of that stuff about corruption perfectly holds in any capitalistic-oriented kleptocracy as well, as any (sincere or insincere) Communist will point out. And rhetoric concerning “the state of human nature” is, in this context, almost invariably bullshit contrived and twisted to justify anything the writer wants from Stalinism to the Guillotine to USA-style “democracy”, imperialism, racism, and banana republicanism. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/67 "2024-06-01T16:17:08Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Ask the Native Americans, they are grateful that we dealt with their forbears properly, in order to build this great country. So this is exactly the kind of “both sideism” that was used to justify support for the Soviet union in the era of the great purges. Even if you ignore all the nonindigenous genocide, famine and oppression, the indigenous population of Siberia face far worse under the communists than the native Americans in the US. There is no way you can validly point to the (very real) historical injustices perpetrated by the US and say “see! the US is just the same as the USSR”. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/68 "2024-06-01T16:45:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > . It is difficult to see the difference between the goals of the American Right Wing and the Soviet Politburo, Again this right here is the answer to the OP. This is exactly the kind of spurious comparison a 1930s pro-soviet communist would make to justify his support of the USSR. The American right wing in 2024 are the most extreme fringe enthno-nationalists that have ever had mainstream acceptance in the US. But they absolutely would not call for (and then write into law as a practical state policy) the execution of large sections of the American population for being class enemies. That is exactly what the politburo did. We are not talking about vague allusions to political violence, I mean actually advocating for wiping out huge sections of society, and then carrying it out. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/69 "2024-06-01T17:20:34Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The Trabant is basically a riding lawnmower, but not as well made. Built with 1930’s technology, and sold continuously, with no changes, through 1989. But then there was (is?) the Lada Niva. Sure it’s a primitive car (it already was 40 years ago), but enthusiasts also in the West swear by it. They say you can fix any problem with a Lada Niva with a hammer and a screwdriver. > **[Lada Niva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Niva)** > > The Lada Niva Legend, formerly called the Lada Niva, VAZ-2121, VAZ-2131, and Lada 4×4 (Russian: ВАЗ-2121, ВАЗ-2131, Лада Нива), is a series of four-wheel drive, small (hatchback), and compact (wagon and pickup) off-road cars designed and produced by AvtoVAZ since 1977. Initially aimed at the rural market, later models also targeted urban users. The three- and later five-door 4×4 hatchbacks were sold under the Lada marque in many markets, and have been in continuous production since 1977. > In the ... > [@chappachula](#): > > The East Germans had zero choice. No, they had a choice, but that choice meant double the price, and more importantly, even a few more years on the waiting list. > **[Wartburg (marque)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartburg_(marque))** > > Wartburg is an East German automotive brand used for cars manufactured at VEB Automobilwerk Eisenach. Origins of the brand date back to 1898. The name derives from Wartburg Castle on one of the hills overlooking the town of Eisenach where the cars were made. From the 1950s until the late 1980s, Wartburgs featured a three-cylinder two-stroke engine with only seven major moving parts (three pistons, three connecting rods and one crankshaft). Production ended in April 1991, and the factory was acq... ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/70 "2024-06-01T18:42:15Z")
Professor Eric Hobsbawm was quoted as saying something on the lines of if that if all the suffering and death generated by the Russian Revolution had produced a model Marxist state, then it would have been absolutely worth it. I’ve been unable to find the exact quote, athough he did write _" As I think back, I ask myself, again and again: was there an alternative to the indiscriminate , brutal, basically unplanned rush forward of the Five-Year Plan? I wish I could say there was, but I cannot. I cannot find a answer."_ ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/71 "2024-06-01T20:41:18Z")
I agree with a lot in the thread, but another factor through the 1930’s was the idea that Communism was the future of mankind, and one should embrace the future. Famous quotation: **I have seen the Future, and it works** — Lincoln Steffens, 1919 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2024, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/72 "2024-06-02T07:40:23Z")
This demonstrates both how Communism is regularly defended with “whataboutism”, _and_ how much of it is just a rhetorical shield for anti-Americanism. Much of the modern Communist movement can be boiled down to a belief that _“America is the Devil, and it doesn’t matter how many people we need to kill to defeat the Devil because once the Devil is defeated the world will be perfect”._ Defenders of Communism drag America into the conversation no matter how irrelevant it is, blame it for literally everything wrong in the world, and support everything up to and including genocide even if all doing so does is let them “score points” against America. Not an exaggeration, I’ve seen a number of them argue for the genocide of the people of Ukraine because _somehow_ that would let them get one-up on the US. And with pretty much any issue across the world they bring up the US as a cause even if it’s not involved or actively opposed to the issue; “America is the Devil” is _axiomatic_ to them. And then there’s the fact that it just doesn’t _matter_ how bad America is; no amount of America being bad will make Communism good. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/73 "2024-07-24T17:26:06Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > But they absolutely would not call for (and then write into law as a practical state policy) the execution of large sections of the American population for being class enemies remove “class” and replace it with “religious” and you’d get there in a generation… ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/74 "2024-07-24T19:47:27Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > What I think is novel was the act of not letting people leave the country. You think the US didn’t do that? Read about them taking away Linus Pauling’s passport so he couldn’t leave the country. It wasn’t always easy for Jews to leave the SU though. They could only go to Israel and they would immediately lose their jobs while waiting for their exit visa. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/75 "2024-07-24T19:58:03Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > remove “class” and replace it with “religious” and you’d get there in a generation Really, now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/76 "2024-07-24T20:36:32Z")
I met several, and they all said Soviet or Chinese communism was “not true communism”. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/77 "2024-07-24T21:32:56Z")
Nowaday’s Chinese “communism” really isn’t. It’s the worst of both worlds, capitalism’s free unabashed reign and communism’s suppression of freedom combined. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/78 "2024-07-24T21:44:26Z")
True. It seems Deng and his successors secretly took Marshal Piłsudski’s advice: “Comrades, I took the red tram of socialism to the stop called Independence, and that’s where I got off. You may keep on to the final stop if you wish, but from now on let’s address each other ‘Mister’” This requires the belief in only two alternatives: total chaos or jackboot tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2024, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280/79 "2024-07-24T22:04:56Z")
I think Marx and Engels looking at China’s “communism” today would weep. But they would already have wept about Stalin’s USSR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-communists-in-the-west-think-about-the-fact-that-communist-states-like-the-soviet-union-or-cuba-held-people-prisoners-and-didn-t-let-them-leave-the-country/1002280.md?page=3)