# What did Madonna have that Cyndi Lauper didn't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723 "2010-12-19T17:09:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/81 "2010-12-20T19:01:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ll take your word for it that she’s better than her 80’s videos would suggest, but I think it’s absurd to suggest that she didn’t want to be just as big as Madonna. All performers want major popular success, no matter what they say. **Dio** , please avoid presenting your opinions as blanket statements of fact. Thanks, **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/82 "2010-12-20T21:41:41Z")
Here is an interview with Jason Corsaro the mix engineer for “Like a Virgin.” The article covers mostly technical details of the recording but the section I quoted below provides some good insight into Madonna’s personality. Not many inexperienced singers would have had the confidence to confront an established producer like Nile Rodgers (producer of Chic and Bowie’s “Let’s Dance”) and take control of the recording session. [http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/classictracks\_0907.htm](http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/classictracks_0907.htm) > [@](#): > > Madonna, meanwhile, although not required to contribute guide vocals for the Like A Virgin album, was present every minute of the sessions, observing and opining on all that was going on. > > “She is amazingly smart, very capable and very focused,” says Corsaro. "She made sure that everything went exactly how she wanted it to, and while some people maybe thought it was pushy I just thought it was powerful. She was very determined for the record to be successful, and she made no bones about it. She was there all the time, making sure everything was going right. If someone played a part that she didn’t like, she’d make this clear and tell him how she wanted it. She had her say, and nothing went by without her hearing it. > > "Sometimes she and Nile were pulling in different directions, but she picked him because she liked his style, and when things became too much for Nile to deal with he would just take off. On the other hand, he would also say when he had a strong idea about something, so there was a balance. It was a good working relationship. The thing was, Madonna was very specific about what she wanted. For instance, Nile was really interested in playing a different style of guitar, and Madonna said, ‘I don’t want that. I want what you played on Chic.’ He said, ‘But I’ve already done that,’ and she said, ‘I want you to do it again.’ So, that’s what he did. If it was up to him he probably would have played things a little differently, but that’s what she wanted and that’s what she got. It wasn’t a big deal. > > “Madonna wasn’t a taskmaster, but in those days people often fooled around and had a lot of fun, and she would say, ‘Time is money and the money is mine. Let’s get to work.’ She was amazing. When anyone asks why I think she’s so successful, I say it’s because of all the effort she put into it. There was no other way: it was success or nothing. She didn’t just come along and expect success to come to her. She went straight for it.” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/83 "2010-12-20T22:05:13Z")
\*\*AnalogSignal \*\*- that is a very insightful quote. From a professional musician’s perspective, that makes it clear that Madonna had a clear vision she was looking to make happen. A person can choose not to like the result, but dismissing Madonna as a hack who jumped on the lastest trend is simply NOT accurate. And that vision and management of her career is a key component of her success vs. Cyndi Lauper. Folks have stated that Cyndi didn’t “want” a mega-star career and has garnered ongoing respect as a musical talent. To be clear, Cyndi is a true musical talent and the longevity of her career is a testament to that. But being successful at Madonna’s level requires FAR more than just musical talent - the ability to build supportive relationships within the business and articulate YOUR musical and career vision - both are essential and very, very hard to do well - especially if you are an eccentric musical genius with limited people skills. Based on many discussions with folks with first-hand knowledge of Cyndi, the latter is a reasonable description of her. So feel free to prefer Cyndi’s musical talent, but there’s no need to trash Madonna for the skills she has used very, very well to manage her own career… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/84 "2010-12-20T22:45:46Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > **Dio** , please avoid presenting your opinions as blanket statements of fact. > > Thanks, > > **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator This forum and this thread are full of people stating opinions as facts. Since when is that against the rules and why aren’t you jumping on everyone else for it? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/85 "2010-12-20T22:49:54Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > So feel free to prefer Cyndi’s musical talent, but there’s no need to trash Madonna for the skills she has used very, very well to manage her own career… Exactly. There is space on my iPod for both artists. A pet peeve of mine is pitting female musical artists against one another, _Highlander_ style “There can be only one!” I can _prefer_ a particular singer without trashing another singer. I can dislike a musician’s work on its own lack of merits. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/86 "2010-12-20T22:51:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This forum and this thread are full of people stating opinions as facts. Since when is that against the rules and why aren’t you jumping on everyone else for it? I thought you might stop by with such a post. [I got you, papa!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=590040) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/87 "2010-12-20T22:52:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This proves Cyndi can turn off that darn accent. Great song > > Her Accent ruins (IMHO) this fantastic Dusty Springfield song > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ8Ot\_HTfxE&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ8Ot_HTfxE&feature=related) > > Shame that she insists on singing with that accent. She sounds so much better in that other song. Hm. I like Cyndi’s accent. In that song even. But I’ve had time to get used to her accent over the decades. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/88 "2010-12-21T00:00:33Z")
Madonna is a music video legend. Without MTV, Madonna wouldn’t be where she is now. That’s what separates her from all the women performers before her. Don’t get me wrong, though. I have read from multiple sources that the woman works extremely hard, and I think the effort shows in what she has put out. People put down the art of performance, and I always wonder why. It requires just as much talent as any other artform. It’s kind of like detracting points from Michael Jackson because he was a performance genius instead of a musical genius. Why weigh one more than the other? Both require hardwork, talent, and loads of guts. I have nothing but love for Cyndi. Musically speaking, Madonna isn’t even in the same dimension as Cyndi. But during the 80s and 90s, she just wasn’t as prolific as Madonna was at churning out “hits.” We live in times when, if you don’t get your mug on TV every five minutes, people think you’ve fallen off the face of the Earth or something. Sad but true. Has a Madonna song ever been covered by anyone? I’m sincerely asking 'cuz I don’t know. Seems like at least “Cherish” or “Borderline” could be done by someone…those are timeless. I _do_ know of several Cyndi Lauper covers, though. So it may be that when it’s all said and done, Cyndi will leave a more last impression than Madonna will. But I loves them both. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/89 "2010-12-21T00:03:01Z")
Popular sex appeal, and the willingness to utilize it… Although, I have to admit that I found Cyndi much more interesting and fun which at least outpaced Madonna in my fantasy department ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/90 "2010-12-21T00:11:33Z")
monstro: > [@](#): > > Has a Madonna song ever been covered by anyone? “Like a Virgin” was covered by Jim Broadbent in the movie Moulin Rouge. One of the funniest musical things I’ve ever seen in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/91 "2010-12-21T01:34:54Z")
Do we have to let Dio derail yet another music thread? > [@Lakai](#): > > Madonna started a whole new marketing concept. A woman who wasn’t ashamed of her sexuality and used it as an asset. Ummmm…Mae West? This was far from new. > [@jayjay](#): > > Cyndi is more of a musician than Madonna. Madonna is more of a pop star than Cyndi. That’s not to denigrate either one of them, just to note that they have different talents and chosen career paths. Yeah. But let’s not pretend that Cyndi wouldn’t love more pop success, maybe not Madonna level, but I bet her career is somewhat disappointing to her. I tend to think that serious music fans underestimate the desire most artists have for pop success (which probably explains the anger many fans have when “their” artists become too popular). ---
**Author:** ![multimediac17](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/839c29/32.png) [@multimediac17](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/multimediac17)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/92 "2010-12-21T02:00:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Has a Madonna song ever been covered by anyone? There have been many, including a few high profile ones. The Flaming Lips - ‘Borderline’, Sonic Youth - ‘Into The Groove’, Marilyn Manson - ‘Justify My Love’, Kelly Osbourne - ‘Papa Don’t Preach’, Boy George - ‘Bad Girl’, Sia - ‘Oh Father’, Natasha Bedingfield - ‘Ray Of Light’, Darren Hayes - ‘Dress You Up’ and then there’s the Glee covers album, etc. etc. > [@monstro](#): > > So it may be that when it’s all said and done, Cyndi will leave a more last impression than Madonna will. I _really_ strongly disagree with this. Madonna is an icon on such a huge scale that barely any popstar will leave and has left as much of an impression on the industry as she has, let alone Cyndi Lauper. Cyndi, whom I must stress that I absolutely love, cannot even come close. I do agree that ‘Time After Time’, ‘True Colors’ and ‘Girls Just Want To Have Fun’ are as highly regarded as some of Madonna’s legendary singles, but three classics vs. almost 30 years of constant worldwide hit singles? > [@monstro](#): > > But I loves them both. Me too. They’re so different in so many ways that it’s funny their supposed rivalry still lives on after all these years. Both have done so well for themselves and it’s not like Madonna went on to huge fame and Cyndi now works at Burger King, judged without comparison to Madonna Cyndi’s career has been amazing - and she’s more famous and way more successful now than many other eighties stars could ever dream of being. ---
**Author:** ![Anticounterrevolutionary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f04885/32.png) [@Anticounterrevolutionary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anticounterrevolutionary)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/93 "2010-12-21T02:27:32Z")
Cyndi Lauper did the theme song for Pee-Wee’s Playhouse as well as the Goonies soundtrack. I think it’s obvious she has more cultural significance than Madonna. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/94 "2010-12-21T02:49:54Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > And [Carly Simon.](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_R_Sqi0a8BRc/SexgZePyTwI/AAAAAAAABX8/VdC-LVCCOTU/s400/Carly+Simon.jpg) > Regarding Madonna, quite true. In fact, you didn’t have to bother undressing her with your eyes because she saved you the mental work. > > As for Lauper, she actually was attractive if you saw her without her goofy hair, clothes, and make-up but that wasn’t part of her public persona so you rarely did. Lest you think I was slagging Ms. Lauper for, I dunno, insufficient sex bomb-ness, let me point out that I’ve bought four of her albums over the years and have yet to purchase any by Madonna (I may make an exception for “I’m Breathless,” though). I love 'em both for very different reasons. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/95 "2010-12-21T03:43:29Z")
I think that nobody has pointed out the obvious: Madonna is cuter. She is also non-threatening. Cyndi is hot, hot, hot, but, she always looked like she would throw you out of bed in a second if she didn’t like something, and go pick up with a guy with a safety pin through his cheek. Madonna, OTOH, appeared to be younger, which she is, IIRC, and if she wasn’t happy with you, she’d at least give you a chance, and she would fool around behind your back before giving you the boot. Hmmm, what else… Oh, yes, Madonna, as a friend of mine pointed out, acted as if she invented sex, which is something that is in sync with her target market. Of course, Madonna couldn’t sing as well as Cyndi, but, singing talent wasn’t what was being sold/bought. Best wishes, hh ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/96 "2010-12-21T07:18:39Z")
I recall reading a mini-interview with Cyndi Lauper during the height of the so-called Madonna-Lauper rivalry and Lauper attributed all of that 100% to the media. She said that she and Madonna were friendly and not rivals, and that she wasn’t trying to compete with Madonna at all and they were both just having fun doing their own thing. I imagine that in that back of Lauper’s mind it might be nice to have all the success that Madonna’s had, but I don’t think she was ever all that interested in trying to acheive it. For example, I sometimes think it would be nice to have Donald Trump’s success, but at the same time I’m not the least bit interested in living the way Trump does. We simply have different interests, goals, and ideas of how we want to spend our time. So, even though I might think it would be nice to have a couple billion bucks, I wouldn’t want to have to live a Trumpian life in order to get 'em. And I think the same holds true with Madonna and Lauper. Lauper’s ambitions were simpy different than Madonna’s. Madonna wanted to be a multi-faceted superstar and Lauper simply wanted to be a singer. And then there’s the fact that Lauper simply didn’t have the goods (the right kind of look, guts (gall?), marketing savvy, etc.) to become the superstar Madonna became, and I think she would have realized and accepted that even if she had harbored a Madonna-esque kind of ambition. In the final analysis, Madonna couldn’t have hacked it with only her pipes the way Lauper has, and Lauper couldn’t have hacked it as a multi-faceted, trend-setting superstar the way Madonna has. So all things considered, I think they each have the kind of career they wanted, realized was possible, and strove for. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2010, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/97 "2010-12-21T09:08:38Z")
Lauper hitched her wagon to professional wrestling, which was (is) kryptonite to her target audience. ---
**Author:** ![NCBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NCBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCBoy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/98 "2013-01-30T02:23:20Z")
You gotta remember. Cyndi Lauper was the biggest female pop star at the time before Madonna came along. First female artist to have 4 songs from an album chart in the top 5 of the pop charts. She was also the new face of MTV, which was still a baby at the time. Madonna’s debut album was doing OK, but she really didn’t blow up until the her 2nd album. Image wise, they were almost similar; some people even accused Madonna of copying Cyndi’s look. But Madonna added some sexuality to her image that Cyndi lacked. And while Madonna was everywhere, Cyndi kind of disappeared and didn’t resurface until 1986. By then, Madonna was the biggest thing in the world. ---
**Author:** ![NCBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NCBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCBoy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/99 "2013-01-30T02:31:55Z")
Furthermore, Cyndi was kind of doing the things on her 1st album that Madonna got a lot of credit for later in her career. Her 1st single was a female-empowerment anthem, she did a somewhat racy Prince cover (“When U Were Mine”), and sang about masturbation (“She Bop”). She even had a song that suggested her boyfriend might be gay (“He’s So Unusual”). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723/100 "2013-01-30T02:40:26Z")
Zombies. No, wait, that was Michael Jackson. I got nuthin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-madonna-have-that-cyndi-lauper-didnt/564723.md?page=6)