# What did paranoid/delusional people fantasize about before the CIA/spies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 22, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981 "2013-01-22T05:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/1 "2013-01-22T05:16:26Z")
It is such a universal delusion associated with some forms of mental illness, I’m sure you could find some guy on the Mongolian steppe who thinks the CIA is trying to kill him and is monitoring his conversations with his yak. So what was the stereotypical paranoid delusion before the CIA? The catholic church? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/2 "2013-01-22T05:25:15Z")
I would nominate Jews, as undefeated–and still champeen–prize winners. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/3 "2013-01-22T05:29:39Z")
I would guess something related to religion, for example that they are demon-possessed, that the Inquisition is out to get them, or that local religious officials are not actually believers and are hindering their spiritual progress. ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/4 "2013-01-22T05:32:16Z")
Also Masons and Roman Catholics (Leo Taxil, Eugene Sue). ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyOgre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@FuzzyOgre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyOgre)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/5 "2013-01-22T05:34:42Z")
Any leaky boat in a storm, or even a well sealed dinghy on a calm sea. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/6 "2013-01-22T05:58:57Z")
Jews as mentioned. The Illuminati were popular bogeymen for quite some time. Cecil talks about it some [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/40/does-may-day-actually-commemorate-the-birth-of-the-illuminati). > [@](#): > > We now take leave of Reality, and enter the twilight world of Total Paranoia. Not much is known about what happened to the Illuminati after 1785. Some of them went underground, and several may have been involved in various plots over the following few years. Whatever the truth of the matter, rightists began churning out an immense volume of books and pamphlets blaming the Illuminati for . . . well, just about everything. > > The most famous of these was a five-volume worked published in 1797-99 by Augustin de Barruel, a French cleric. A synthesis of nearly every plot theory that had appeared up to that time, Barruel’s book traced the alleged conspiracy from the Manichean heresy of the third century AD down through the Knights Templars in the Middle Ages and finally to the Masons and the Illuminati, who (he said) were ultimately successful in fomenting the French Revolution. > > Barruel’s book was the foundation of a vast legend about the Illuminati and their allies, lackeys, and dupes that has continued, with considerable elaboration, down to the present day. Well into the 20th century Barruel was still being quoted by other conspiracy writers. > > What is striking, though, is not just the longevity of the theory, but the extent to which it was wholeheartedly believed. Even so prominent a figure as the English statesman Disraeli accepted unquestioningly the notion that secret societies were behind everything. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/7 "2013-01-22T07:07:37Z")
I think the OP is asking about what paranoid schizophrenics were fixated on pre-CIA, not what sane paranoid people were afraid of. The two might have a lot of overlap, but its not obviously so. Of the famous pre-1950’s paranoids I know of, James Matthews was afraid of gangs of anti-British spies using mind-rays to subvert the British gov’t somehow (which basically seems like modern CIA delusions sans the actual CIA) and W.C. Minor was afraid of the Irish. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/8 "2013-01-22T07:38:50Z")
There have always been spies, at least since people became organized on a scale large enough to have wars, and where you would not personally be acquainted with everyone on your side (in your tribe). > [@Simplicio](#): > > I think the OP is asking about what paranoid schizophrenics were fixated on pre-CIA, not what sane paranoid people were afraid of. “Sane paranoid people” seems like a bit of an oxymoron. You may not have to be schizophrenic to be paranoid, but if you are paranoiac (in anything more than a very loose, colloquial sense) you are not entirely sane. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/9 "2013-01-22T07:46:08Z")
I’m not sure if this is what the OP has in mind, but Siamese King Taksin was executed in 1782. Some people at the time believed someone else was executed in his stead and that he himself lived out the rest of his life quietly as a monk. There was something similar with the previous Thai king, older brother of the present one. He was found mysteriously shot to death in his bed in the main palace in 1946. The death was officially ruled an accident. But some people believe the young man really went off to be a monk, not caring for the kingship. In fact, one of my sisters-in-law said she knows a lady who is convinced she has met and spoken with that very king-turned-monk, although he could not of course let on it was him. At least, she _claims_ it was “someone she knows,” but I have an inkling it might be her, and she just didn’t want to be scoffed at. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/10 "2013-01-22T07:48:41Z")
Witches. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/11 "2013-01-22T07:52:04Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > “Sane paranoid people” seems like a bit of an oxymoron. You may not have to be schizophrenic to be paranoid, but if you are paranoiac (in anything more than a very loose, colloquial sense) you are not entirely sane. Eh, I think its clear what I mean. There are plenty of sane people that believed in witches or the Illuminati or Zionist Conspiracies. I don’t think that’s what the OP is asking about, he’s asking about the delusions of people whose paranoia is caused by actual mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/12 "2013-01-22T08:00:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Jews as mentioned. The Illuminati were popular bogeymen for quite some time. Cecil talks about it some [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/40/does-may-day-actually-commemorate-the-birth-of-the-illuminati). Bingo. When I was in HS, 1968, my History teacher read us a rant by one of these paranoid groups (for fun, he was a reasonable guy.) I don’t remember much, except the repeated phrase “John James Audobon, aka George Washington.” I guess my brain rejected how they got to that. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/13 "2013-01-22T09:36:32Z")
And I knew someone back in Texas who believed every word of Jack Chick’s regarding the Catholic Church’s secret world domination. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/14 "2013-01-22T10:58:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > “John James Audobon, aka George Washington.” _That’s_ weird. If he’s the [John James Audubon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Audubon) I’m thinking of, as opposed to the famed German roadway magnate John James Autobahn, the big rumor around _him_ was [del]he _really_ liked birds[/del] he was the [Lost Dauphin of France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France) [del]a.k.a. Flipper[/del]. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/15 "2013-01-22T12:13:43Z")
The OP seems pretty clear that the question is mental illness, so conspiracies involving the Illuminati, Jews, goddamn-pinko-liberals (one word as I understand it), United Nations, Catholic Church (or just the Jesuits), etc are not the issue. True paranoiacs seem to fixate on some form of recent technology or force as the medium, and almost anyone in any position of power, or that they might have even the slightest fear of. The advent of radio of course was a godsend. Once wireless communication was appreciated, mind control rays, control by wireless, and so on, to explain the voices in their head was too easy. The “government” no matter where you live is also a trivial source. Once your country has a secret service they are a shoe in. “The man”. I’m sure the FBI was as big if not greater source fear for many poor souls in the US. But you got people who were convinced that the next door neighbour was piping gas into their home, or blowing poisonous dust through the keyhole. Estranged relatives are a good subject of fear. Nothing like a belief that “that floozy” is “slowly poisoning me to get the money”. Delusions don’t need organised agencies to provide a subject. But for isolated people, it is perhaps an easy start. I would bet that the established church in many countries provided a good subject for centuries. Of course for the faithful, there is nothing like Beelzebub as a good all round source of torment. The main trick is not to find oneself on the wrong end of a burning. No doubt some are now convinced that the LHC is a huge secret mind control weapon. Oh and satellites, gosh, how could one forget all those satellites beaming mind control rays down. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/16 "2013-01-22T12:57:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Eh, I think its clear what I mean. There are plenty of sane people that believed in witches or the Illuminati or Zionist Conspiracies. I don’t think that’s what the OP is asking about, he’s asking about the delusions of people whose paranoia is caused by actual mental illness. But just believing in one or other of those sorts of things is not evidence that you are paranoid. If, for instance, you live in a subculture where such beliefs are widespread and considered normal, you might well believe them and be perfectly mentally healthy. Having weird and false beliefs about who or what might be dangerous is not necessarily a sign of paranoia. To say someone is paranoid _does_ imply that they are less than fully mentally healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/17 "2013-01-23T01:35:56Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Of the famous pre-1950’s paranoids I know of, James Matthews was afraid of gangs of anti-British spies using mind-rays to subvert the British gov’t somehow (which basically seems like modern CIA delusions sans the actual CIA) [The Air Loom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_loom#The_.22Air_Loom.22) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-paranoid-delusional-people-fantasize-about-before-the-cia-spies/647981/18 "2013-01-23T01:53:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > “John James Audubon, aka George Washington.” No, he was African-French. I know that because a radio series about famous African-Americans put out by the Chicago Public Schools said so in his biography, down to the kid playing him as a child said, “But Papa, I gots to paint duh buhds,” in a lovely South Side accent. :rolleyes: IRL, the African-French ones were his half-siblings, and even they were octoroons, to use the phrase of the time.