What did President Ford give President Nixon a pardon *for*?

[Bricker]

@Northern_Piper

The US Attorney stands up and says, “It is our position that the presidential pardon power is limited to cases where the individual has been charged and convicted. The President cannot pardon for an inchoate allegation that had never been tested by the courts. The purported pardon from President Ford is not authorized by the Constitution and the United States has the right to charge the accused and have the charges determined by this Honourable Court.”

The Federal Court judge in that case would have to rule on the validity of the pardon.

The defense – if not the judge sua sponte – would probably be very quick to remind the US Attorney that his “position” was foreclosed by Ex Parte Garland, 71 US 333, 380 (1866):

The Constitution provides that the President “shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offences against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.”

The power thus conferred is unlimited, with the exception stated. It extends to every offence known to the law, and may be exercised at any time after its commission, either before legal proceedings are taken, or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment.

Notice that the power does not extend to the pardon of future acts, which would transform the pardon power into a legislative veto. The pardon power may be used only after the act constituting the crime is completed, but it does not require charges or conviction.

[Shodan]

Thanks, Bricker.

Regards,
Shodan

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Bricker

The defense – if not the judge sua sponte – would probably be very quick to remind the US Attorney that his “position” was foreclosed by Ex Parte Garland, 71 US 333, 380 (1866):

I’m not sure that Garland indicates that the POTUS has the power to pardon unknown crimes, though. It would seem that the POTUS must know about the crime before he can pardon it, or else he won’t know if he is pardoning for an offense “after its commission.”

[Bricker]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I’m not sure that Garland indicates that the POTUS has the power to pardon unknown crimes, though. It would seem that the POTUS must know about the crime before he can pardon it, or else he won’t know if he is pardoning for an offense “after its commission.”

Was Carter’s blanket pardon of draft dodgers effective as to Cass Cravenheart, even without his knowing that Cass spent four years in Thunder Bay instead of China Beach?

[md2000]

@Bricker

Was Carter’s blanket pardon of draft dodgers effective as to Cass Cravenheart, even without his knowing that Cass spent four years in Thunder Bay instead of China Beach?

Four years in Thunder Bay? He’s already done his time, then…

IIRC, Nixon was at least facing the risk of Obstruction charges, and also Conspiracy. Obviously, a pardon needs to be “blanket” or a zealous or vindictive or partisan prosecutor can probably find a thousand extra charges to lay… which seems to be standard procedure nowadays in regular criminal cases. So logically, it could include crimes for which charges have not been laid, let alone convictions registered. “I pardon you for anything related to …” It has quite commonly been used before trial, so why not before when (extra) charges are laid.

It seems to me it’s a mechanism for the executive branch to correct the excesses or misguided zeal of the prosecution… or do favors. (Google Mark and Denise Rich)

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Bricker

Was Carter’s blanket pardon of draft dodgers effective as to Cass Cravenheart, even without his knowing that Cass spent four years in Thunder Bay instead of China Beach?

I would have said no. Obviously, you’d need a subsequent prosecution to find out.

ETA: Personally, I would be quite happy if an amendment to repeal the POTUS’ pardon power were to pass. Functionally, I think the presidential pardon is little more than a sort of reverse patronage tool.

[drad_dog]

He gave him a pardon for choosing him as the unelected president

[Little_Nemo]

Does anyone know if there was ever any movement after Ford’s pardon to charge Nixon on state crimes?

[Diceman]

It hasn’t been mentioned so far, but I believe it’s generally accepted that the president could not write a pardon for himself. Otherwise, this would set up scenarios where the president could, for example, embezzle a few billion dollars from the Treasury, pardon himself for it, and who gives a fuck if Congress impeaches him?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Well, that’s not a very good example. Even if the impeached POTUS is not criminally culpable (or at least can’t be prosecuted) for embezzlement the government can still get its money back.

A better example would be where a POTUS decides to kill someone for the lulz then pardons himself.

[Leo_Bloom]

@Diceman

It hasn’t been mentioned so far, but I believe it’s generally accepted that the president could not write a pardon for himself. Otherwise, this would set up scenarios where the president could, for example, embezzle a few billion dollars from the Treasury, pardon himself for it, and who gives a fuck if Congress impeaches him?

Damn if this doesn’t parallel some of things that King Edward VIII might have done, as can, conceivably, any future King, or President, if he wants to fuck with the country and try to find, or find, loopholes because no one ever did it before.

But they had, at least, James II 300 years earlier as a trial run. Nixon’s the one!

Edward VIII thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18840380

[Leo_Bloom]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

…A better example would be where a POTUS decides to kill someone for the lulz then pardons himself.

Yes–and I can’t remember if I OP’ed, or someone else mentioned as a drift, about if the Pope murdered someone in broad daylight in St. Peter’s Square, and said, “nope, I didn’t do anything, and I’m infallible, so suck it.”

Can’t remember where that went, for what it would have been worth here.

[Leo_Bloom]

@Bricker

Was Carter’s blanket pardon of draft dodgers effective as to Cass Cravenheart, even without his knowing that Cass spent four years in Thunder Bay instead of China Beach?

Any help? I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about…

[Colibri]

@Leo_Bloom

Yes–and I can’t remember if I OP’ed, or someone else mentioned as a drift, about if the Pope murdered someone in broad daylight in St. Peter’s Square, and said, “nope, I didn’t do anything, and I’m infallible, so suck it.”

The doctrine of papal infallibility only applies to matters of faith and morals, and when the pope is officially speaking ex cathedra. The pope can’t rule on factual matters.

[Colibri]

@Leo_Bloom

Any help? I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about…

He means a hypothetical draft dodger (Cravenheart) would be pardoned even if Carter did not know he had spent the war in Thunder Bay (Canada) rather than in Vietnam (China Beach).

[Bricker]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

I would have said no. Obviously, you’d need a subsequent prosecution to find out.

I guess I am suggesting that courts (and prosecutors) have not agreed with you, and treated such blanket pardons as effective, at least in the sense of no subsequent prosecutions existing.

[Bricker]

@Leo_Bloom

Any help? I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about…

@Colibri

He means a hypothetical draft dodger (Cravenheart) would be pardoned even if Carter did not know he had spent the war in Thunder Bay (Canada) rather than in Vietnam (China Beach).

Exactly. It was an example intended to point out the flaw in RNATB’s proposed analysis: the President does not need to know about the specific factual acts before issuing an effective pardon. It’s only necessary that the pardon covers a period of time in the past.

[Muffin]

Ford was worried that Woodward and Bernstein might discover who headed the conspiracy to kill the Kennedys, so he pardoned Nixon.

[Leo_Bloom]

Thanks, C & B.

[kaylasdad99]

@Bricker

Was Carter’s blanket pardon of draft dodgers effective as to Cass Cravenheart, even without his knowing that Cass spent four years in Thunder Bay instead of China Beach?

Why the hell would a draft dodger go to China Beach?

Hiding in plain sight?