# What did Reid say? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679 "2010-01-12T17:23:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/1 "2010-01-12T17:23:26Z")
So the news is all in a twitter about what Sen. Harry Reid said. I know he used the terms “negro dialect” and “light-skinned” but it is always presented as though he has Tourette’s and just randomly shouted them out and I haven’t seen or heard any complete quote from him so I can understand for myself why these terms were used. What was the context in which these terms were used? ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/2 "2010-01-12T17:32:47Z")
It recently came to light that during the campaign a couple years back, Reid said that Obama could win the presidency basically because he was light skinned and didn’t talk like a black person. These statements were in private but documented conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/3 "2010-01-12T17:49:01Z")
From the book, “Game Change”, talking about why Reid was an early supporter of Obama. > [@](#): > > He (Reid) was wowed by Obama’s oratorical gifts and believed that the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama - a ‘light-skinned’ African American ‘with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one,’ as he later put it privately. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/4 "2010-01-12T18:40:57Z")
[Here’s](http://tampabaytimes.fl.ussrv06.newsmemory.com/index.php) an article from my local paper (scroll to T23). As the PC police fall all over themselves to prove who is the most outraged they have ignored the fact that what the man said would seem to be based on facts. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/5 "2010-01-12T18:54:38Z")
“Negro dialect” is that an ‘‘accepted’’ description of a certain dialect? ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/6 "2010-01-12T19:02:51Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > “Negro dialect” is that an ‘‘accepted’’ description of a certain dialect? Yes, yes it is. In 1954! I may be misinterpreting but I think the offense was not that he used an outdated term but that he dared to refer to matters concerning Mr. Obama’s ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![WhyWhyWhy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whywhywhy/32/7539_2.png) [@WhyWhyWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyWhyWhy)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/7 "2010-01-12T19:15:30Z")
Some people can really get their panties in a wad when unPC terms are used. What? That was sexist!?! Well, f— me with high heels! ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/8 "2010-01-12T19:21:58Z")
It may be that the term “Negro” is outdated but I don’t know that there is anything inherently wrong with it. After all, there hasn’t been a big push to rename the United Negro College Fund, at least not that I’m aware of. Kind of reminds me of the old Bloom County cartoon where Steve Dallas was trying to explain to his mother why the term “colored people” was offensive but “people of color” was not. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/9 "2010-01-13T00:49:32Z")
the census has included negro in the questionaire because a portion of people self identify as negro rather than any of the other options of black or african american. they say that it is on their birth certificate and that is what they are. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/10 "2010-01-13T14:32:02Z")
The argument that outdated terms aren’t outdated because older organizations never re-branded themselves is getting a bit cute. There’s two good reasons why the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People didn’t change their name… one is it’s in their best interests for people to understand they’ve been around since 1909. The other is, c’mon, who’d want to be the N.A.A.A.A.? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/11 "2010-01-13T14:50:26Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > It may be that the term “Negro” is outdated but I don’t know that there is anything inherently wrong with it. There’s nothing inherently wrong with any word, but “Negro” is considered outdated and is avoided for because of its associations with the Jim Crow-era South and general racism. That’s been the case for decades, Reid’s full remarks have not been made public as far as I know, but here is the full paragraph from _Game Change_ [quoted in USA Today] ([http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/01/obama-reid-and-the-latest-washington-book-frenzy/1](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/01/obama-reid-and-the-latest-washington-book-frenzy/1)): > [@](#): > > Years later, Reid would claim that he was steadfastly neutral in the 2008 race; that he never chose sides between Barack (Obama) and Hillary (Clinton); that all he did was tell Obama that “he could be president,” that “the stars could align for him.” But at the time, in truth, his encouragement of Obama was unequivocal. He was wowed by Obama’s oratorical gifts and believed that the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama – a “light-skinned” African-American “with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one,” as he later put it privately. As you can see, it’s only a partial quote. But those are the words that started this controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Aestivalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Aestivalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aestivalis)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/12 "2010-01-13T15:34:55Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > The argument that outdated terms aren’t outdated because older organizations never re-branded themselves is getting a bit cute. There’s two good reasons why the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People didn’t change their name… one is it’s in their best interests for people to understand they’ve been around since 1909. > > The other is, c’mon, who’d want to be the N.A.A.A.A.? 😉 Could be worse. It could be the American Association for the Advancement of African-Americans. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/13 "2010-01-13T17:09:45Z")
As **Captain Amazing** said, there doesn’t seem to have been all that much context even in the original source, which is the book ‘Game Change’ by John Heilemann and Mark Halperin, journalists with Time and New York magazines. > [@](#): > > He was wowed by Obama’s oratorical gifts and believed that the country was ready to embrace a black presidential candidate, especially one such as Obama - a ‘light-skinned’ African American ‘with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one,’ as he later put it privately. I think there are two points Republicans have seized on: the first is that Reid is implying a darker-skinned African American, or an African American with more of the classic MLK/black preacher oratorical style (what I’m guessing he meant by “Negro dialect”), would have had a harder time becoming President. I think that line of criticism doesn’t really work, because Reid is probably right, and all he’s doing is pointing out the fact, not endorsing it. The second line of criticism is that the term “Negro dialect” itself is racist, either because of the word “Negro” itself or the implication that black people have their own dialect. If, as I think, Reid is using the term to refer to the rhythmic, soaring black-preacher style of public speaking, then I think it’s undoubtedly true that it exists. And as Reid implies, Obama does tend to bend his speech more towards that style when he’s speaking in churches in front of a mostly black audience. His use of the term “negro” itself is definitely unfortunate though. Admittedly it can be hard to keep up with which terms are politically correct nowadays when it comes to race, but you’d think a high-ranking, elected politician should be making more of a conscious effort to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/14 "2010-01-13T17:39:54Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > …The second line of criticism is that the term “Negro dialect” itself is racist, either because of the word “Negro” itself or the implication that black people have their own dialect. If, as I think, Reid is using the term to refer to the rhythmic, soaring black-preacher style of public speaking, then I think it’s undoubtedly true that it exists. I think Reid was taking about something else, not just preacher talk. Years ago scholars identified Black English, described in this [Time article from 1972](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879171,00.html). IIRC this was considered a valid dialect. There was discussion (possibly even implementation) of teaching English to black students as if they spoke a foreign language, treating Black English as a legitimate dialect, rather than simply poor English. Controversial, as you can imagine. > [@](#): > > His use of the term “negro” itself is definitely unfortunate though. Admittedly it can be hard to keep up with which terms are politically correct nowadays when it comes to race, but you’d think a high-ranking, elected politician should be making more of a conscious effort to keep up. It doesn’t surprise me to hear someone born in 1939 say that, and it appears that he meant no derision or disrespect by using the term. (I would expect a Senator to be a little more aware of this kind of thing, but he may not have expected his remarks to be made public. I doubt he would say the same thing in a talk show interview.) My father, who was born in 1923, was one of the least prejudiced people I knew; he even reacted nonchanlantly when I was dating a black woman for a while. But he used terms like “colored” without a moment’s thought, because that’s what he grew up with. He would use that term the same way that a PC person today would use African American, and frankly they both would mean exactly the same thing in terms of both denotation and connotation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/15 "2010-01-13T23:29:30Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I think Reid was taking about something else, not just preacher talk. Years ago scholars identified Black English, described in this [Time article from 1972](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879171,00.html). IIRC this was considered a valid dialect. There was discussion (possibly even implementation) of teaching English to black students as if they spoke a foreign language, treating Black English as a legitimate dialect, rather than simply poor English. Controversial, as you can imagine. Maybe. If that’s what he meant it would be very disappointing. But personally I think the “…unless he wanted to” part suggests he’s referring to classical black-preacher oratory, because that way of speaking can be powerful and plays well particularly with some black audiences, so it’s something Obama might “want” to employ sometimes. Whereas he’d never “want” to employ the type of speech you’re suggesting, which is basically just poor English. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/16 "2010-01-13T23:37:08Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > Maybe. If that’s what he meant it would be very disappointing. But personally I think the “…unless he wanted to” part suggests he’s referring to classical black-preacher oratory, because that way of speaking can be powerful and plays well particularly with some black audiences, so it’s something Obama might “want” to employ sometimes. Whereas he’d never “want” to employ the type of speech you’re suggesting, which is basically just poor English. Classical black-preacher oratory is a speaking style, not a dialect. But I didn’t have a conversation with Reid to ask him exactly what he meant. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/17 "2010-01-13T23:46:27Z")
No, **The Great Philosopher** , it’s a separate dialect. Has it’s own rules and everything. Black English aka African American Vernacular English is a dialect, not just “bad English”. What Reid was probably talking about is called “code-switching”, which means that Obama can choose to use Standard American English dialect or AAVE dialect. Many, many black Americans do this daily. How well he speaks AAVE, I don’t know, as I’ve never really heard him do that for any length of time and because I’m no expert in AAVE. Preacher-style oratory is just that, a set of mannerisms. It’s not a separate dialect. I’m just damn impressed that Reid actually used the word “dialect” correctly! (Assuming he actually meant AAVE and not just the occasional use of preacher-style oratory.) How many times have you seen that happen? Tempest in a teapot. Reid was just saying what was obvious to anyone with a brain. He should have phrased it better. As a politician, he should know that. I, too, have known quite a few older folks that used “colored” or “Negro” without any ill intent, because those were the “correct” words they grew up with. Most African Americans I know take this in stride. Usage of those words in an offensive manner is still offensive, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/18 "2010-01-14T00:04:45Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > No, **The Great Philosopher** , it’s a separate dialect. Has it’s own rules and everything. Black English aka African American Vernacular English is a dialect, not just “bad English”. > > What Reid was probably talking about is called “code-switching”, which means that Obama can choose to use Standard American English dialect or AAVE dialect. Many, many black Americans do this daily. How well he speaks AAVE, I don’t know, as I’ve never really heard him do that for any length of time and because I’m no expert in AAVE. > > Preacher-style oratory is just that, a set of mannerisms. It’s not a separate dialect. > > I’m just damn impressed that Reid actually used the word “dialect” correctly! (Assuming he actually meant AAVE and not just the occasional use of preacher-style oratory.) How many times have you seen that happen? > > Tempest in a teapot. Reid was just saying what was obvious to anyone with a brain. He should have phrased it better. As a politician, he should know that. > > I, too, have known quite a few older folks that used “colored” or “Negro” without any ill intent, because those were the “correct” words they grew up with. Most African Americans I know take this in stride. Usage of those words in an offensive manner is still offensive, though. If there’s a “Negro dialect” that is genuinely a completely different dialect from regular English, then the suggestion that that’s what Reid is referring to definitely doesn’t make sense to me. Obama clearly wouldn’t speak it: he has a white mother, he grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia where hardly any of his friends were black and he studied at Columbia and Harvard. I’ve never heard of him speaking a different dialect. The idea that he has somehow developed the use of an independent African-American dialect simply because he’s half-black seems a bit silly to me, and it surely can’t be what Reid meant. Like I said, personally I suspect Reid was (incorrectly) referring to black-preacher oratory as a dialect, and saying that Obama is more appealing to middle-class white America than, say, Jesse Jackson, because someone who speaks like that the whole time type is too reminiscent of some of the fiery oratory of black militants during the civil rights movement. Obama does build on elements of that type of oratory but he tones it down a lot, which makes him more appealing. To me that interpretation makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/19 "2010-01-14T00:36:01Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > The idea that he has somehow developed the use of an independent African-American dialect simply because he’s half-black seems a bit silly to me, and it surely can’t be what Reid meant. I think that’s exactly what he meant. Or, more specifically,the reverse… that he was one of those blacks who didn’t talk like that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679/20 "2010-01-14T15:15:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think that’s exactly what he meant. Or, more specifically,the reverse… that he was one of those blacks who didn’t talk like that. Then what does “…unless he wanted to” mean? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-reid-say/524679.md?page=2)