# What did the flight engineer do in the days of 3-man flight crews? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 21, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506 "2020-12-21T05:56:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/1 "2020-12-21T05:56:06Z")
When airliners had 3-man (yeah, I doubt there were many women in the cockpit in those days) flight crews, what did the flight engineer do? Who or what performs those functions now? When did airlines stop having flight engineers? If an airliner designed for a 3-person crew were flying today, could it be properly operated with only two people? In the classic TV series, _[The Bob Newhart Show](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068049/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)_, Bob and Emily’s nextdoor neighbor was Howard Borden (played by Bill Daily). Howard told people he was a navigator for an airline. Is this the same job as a flight engineer? Since Howard was not out exploring new lands, what sort of navigating did he need to do? If the flight was to go from Chicago to Miami, isn’t that route already well known? Howard wasn’t in charge of pointing the plane in the right direction, so did he just tell the pilots to take heading “such-n-such”? Howard was played as a well-meaning but awkward, bumbling sort of a guy. He did not seem to be the brightest bulb on the dashboard. Could such a bumbler be successful as a navigator or flight engineer in those days? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/2 "2020-12-21T06:24:50Z")
AIUI, no, the navigator and flight engineer were not the same. The navigator’s job was just that - chart, keep things updated as the plane went, make sure it was on the right course. The engineer checked the systems to make sure everything was in good condition, particularly the engines. Today both positions are obsolete due to high-tech (with GPS, no need for a navigator, and the systems report all the data to the pilots on the digital screens, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/3 "2020-12-21T06:42:27Z")
the flight engineer role was also to keep track of the fuel consumption, to be sure the plane has enough to reach its destination. More vital in case of fuel leak, engine shut, etc ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/4 "2020-12-21T06:54:51Z")
One of my favorite airline stories is the [Gimli Glider](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider), where absolutely everything went wrong, but then everything went right. A 767 ran out of fuel at 41,000 feet. One contributing factor was the airline “had failed to reallocate the task of checking fuel load (which had been the responsibility of the flight engineer on older aircraft flown with a crew of three).” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/5 "2020-12-21T07:07:40Z")
Wikipedia covers it pretty well. > **[Flight engineer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_engineer)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > A flight engineer (FE), also sometimes called an air engineer, is the member of an aircraft's flight crew who monitors and operates its complex aircraft systems. In the early era of aviation, the position was sometimes referred to as the "air mechanic". Flight engineers can still be found on some larger fixed-wing airplanes and helicopters. A similar crew position exists on some spacecraft. In most modern aircraft, their complex systems are both m... A modern jet does most systems functions automatically. An engine generator won’t be brought online if it is outside voltage and amperage parameters. If it’s online and develops a problem, the system will automatically take it offline and tie busses as required to keep the aircraft fully powered. All the pilots have to do is run a checklist that confirms the system has worked correctly and place any switches into a position that matches the state of aircraft. E.g, the system may have taken generator 1 offline. The checklist might then require turning generator 1 OFF, even though the system has already done this, it’s just a tidy up of the electrical system panel. In the olden days, when @LSLGuy was in his prime ;), that sort of thing would’ve been handled by the flight engineer. Add in other systems such as engines, air conditioning, pressurisation, and hydraulics, and you have plenty for the FE to think about. The navigator’s job was to work out where they are, how to get to where they want to be, and how long it will take. This job is handled by a flight management computer these days. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/6 "2020-12-21T07:23:43Z")
I recently learned that in the days of even larger crews, the flight engineer was a gunner. Apparently, during part of the flight, shooting back was more important than calculating fuel loads . ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/7 "2020-12-21T07:24:14Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > In the olden days, when @LSLGuy was in his prime ;), that sort of thing would’ve been handled by the flight engineer. Yep, I worked with an industrial electrician (and a very good one, he later went on to be a salaried IBEW instructor) that used to be a flight engineer. As he used to say, the job walked away from him rather than vice versa. He loved it but the position became obsolete and he had to change careers. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/8 "2020-12-21T13:04:14Z")
The Martin Mars had not one, but two Flight Engineers: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qL2I8HfxF2s/maxresdefault.jpg "Fly the Martin Mars - Full Cockpit Audio") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL2I8HfxF2s) Brian ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/9 "2020-12-21T13:48:15Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I recently learned that in the days of even larger crews, the flight engineer was a gunner. Apparently, during part of the flight, shooting back was more important than calculating fuel loads . Wow, I never realized that competition for routes was ever that fierce… ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/10 "2020-12-21T14:28:59Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > The Martin Mars had not one, but two Flight Engineers: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL2I8HfxF2s&t=680s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL2I8HfxF2s&t=680s) > > Brian So far as I know, the B-36 only had one, despite having 10 engines to look after. Picture of the Flight Engineer’s station: [The 10-engine plane time forgot: Convair's B-36 Peacemaker - CNET](https://www.cnet.com/pictures/convair-b-36/43/) Per the [article](https://www.cnet.com/news/six-turning-four-burning-a-closer-look-at-the-enormous-10-engine-b-36/) text, the engineer was also in charge of opening and closing louvers in the front of the wing, to balance the engines’ need for airflow vs drag reduction. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/11 "2020-12-21T14:30:53Z")
I was a flight engineer for about 5 years on 727s. By then (late 80s thru early 90s) F/Es were pilots too. That was not true back in the beginning of F/Es during and just after WWII. Here are some relevant posts including some history and evolution of the job: > [@Can the flight engineer fly the plane?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-the-flight-engineer-fly-the-plane/557077/6): > > Former airline pilot & flight engineer (“F/E”) … Pretty much as folks above said. Very few F/E equipped airplanes are still in use. And of those still flying, the vast majority are in the cargo biz. And concentrated in the primitive or poorer parts of the world. In about 1965 the FAA mandated that all flight engineers of US commercial passenger planes be pilots. Prior to that it was a separate career growing out of aviation maintenance technician. Since then, in US passenger service t… > [@If the cockpit fell off a airliner while in mid-flight, could it be landed safely?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-the-cockpit-fell-off-a-airliner-while-in-mid-flight-could-it-be-landed-safely/786779/37): > > That’s a \*little \*behind the times. slight_smile The last airline navigators disappeared in the early 1960s. That reduced the then-current 4-man crew on long range flights to 3: Captain, co-pilot, and flight engineer. The flight engineer is sort of an on-board mechanic and the equivalent of a ship’s engineering officer: responsible for operating all the mechanical systems so the pilots can concentrate on steering. So hydraulics, engines, electrical, HVAC, fuel, etc. The last mainstream air… There’s a bunch of ancillary info in those threads that may bear on the OP’s curiosities. And here specifically is a dissertation on one specific duty of the flight engineer that’s been obsoleted by a different approach to redundancy. > [@Multiple generators in phase. How?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/multiple-generators-in-phase-how/404854/22): > > Multi-engine aircraft aren’t much different from submarines in this regard. Older multi-engine jets, say airliners from the 707 through the early 737 and 747 used a similar system. Each engine drove an AC generator through a hydraulic pump/motor assembly called a “constant speed drive” or CSD. The CSD tried to maintain a constant output (ie generator input) shaft RPM regardless of engine RPM. That way the generator’s frequency would also be constant, at least within the tolerance of the CSD’… And finally, what happened to them: > [@Defunct professions](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defunct-professions/767198/35): > > For me the defunct profession is “Flight Engineer”. When I started in the industry in the late '80s there were probably 10,000 flight engineers working in the US. Now it’s closer to a couple hundred. I bet it’ll be zero in another 5-ish years. I’d be happy to talk more about any of this if anyone has specific questions. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeysBrother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@MonkeysBrother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeysBrother)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/12 "2020-12-21T18:07:21Z")
As is hinted at in the Martin Mars and B-36 links, those big ol’ reciprocating radial engines were much more complicated beasts than jet engines. They NEEDED FEs on DC-7s and Connies. Lots more dials to monitor (and no microprocessors to help). Did you notice the FE’s panel on the Mars? The flight engineer was responsible for adjusting the mixture (important for optimum power and fuel consumption), cowl flaps (engine cooling), and even throttles. That’s along with cabin pressurization, hydraulics, fuel flow, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/13 "2020-12-21T20:36:15Z")
I remember that from when it happened. Basically, they got confused between metric and English units. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/14 "2020-12-21T21:07:19Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > … what sort of navigating did he need to do? If the flight was to go from Chicago to Miami, isn’t that route already well known? Almost by definition, scheduled airline flights follow well-known routes. But back before modern electronic navigation aids (GPS, inertial nav, etc.) properly sticking to a route often required skill & careful work. This was especially true of ocean-crossing flights, during which the plane might be out of range of all ground-based radionav signals for hours. I have a friend old enough to have done some limited celestial navigation on PanAm flights to South America. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/15 "2020-12-21T21:35:51Z")
Yes. There was a problem with the fuel system, miscommunication all around about it, and metric/English conversion confusion. What has been called a “Swiss Cheese” problem–all the holes lined up and it could easily have been a catastrophe. A flight engineer would have been in charge of this issue and most likely would have grounded the plane. Thankfully, everything went right after they ran out of fuel–the captain was an experienced glider pilot, the co pilot knew of an decommissioned runway close by from his time in the RCAF, and even the nosewheel collapsing and the guardrail on the runway helped. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/16 "2020-12-21T21:43:42Z")
> [@3AxisCtrl](#): > > I have a friend old enough to have done some limited celestial navigation on PanAm flights to South America. Reading the crew list for the Kee Bird (a B29 doing long range flights), there was both a navigator and a celestial navigator. And they still managed to get lost. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/17 "2020-12-21T21:57:21Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > So far as I know, the B-36 only had one, despite having 10 engines to look after. Picture of the Flight Engineer’s station: [https://www.cnet.com/pictures/convair-b-36/43/](https://www.cnet.com/pictures/convair-b-36/43/) > > Per the [article](https://www.cnet.com/news/six-turning-four-burning-a-closer-look-at-the-enormous-10-engine-b-36/) text, the engineer was also in charge of opening and closing louvers in the front of the wing, to balance the engines’ need for airflow vs drag reduction. As the name of article suggests, they had “6 turning and 4 burning.” Or as B-36 veterans said, “two turning, two burning, two smoking, two choking, two unknown.” ---
**Author:** ![BertNobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3e96dc/32.png) [@BertNobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BertNobbins)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/18 "2020-12-22T16:49:47Z")
It is a fact that big aero internal combustion engines were horribly and dangerously unreliable, even at the end of their era. (in fact, especially so, as engine makers strove for higher outputs) There was also the dreadful possibility of the propeller pitch control failing so that the propeller drove the engine into overspeed, with the engine tearing itself out of the wing as it seized, or shooting propeller blades into the cabin. A Flight Engineer was no luxury. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/19 "2020-12-22T19:10:29Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > So far as I know, the B-36 only had one, despite having 10 engines to look after. Picture of the Flight Engineer’s station: I’ve got a pdf copy of the B-36D crew operating manual. The early model B-36s had 1 FE. The H model, which was the final and most numerous kind, carried 2 FEs although it sorta sounds like that was one guy who did the engineer job and one guy who was a qualified engineer, but did gunner work. Also these airplanes flew up to 40-hour missions. Probably had the 2 FEs taking turns sleeping and gunning and engineering. That CNET article you cite has some cool pix, but of course is short on details. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506/20 "2020-12-22T19:32:10Z")
The gigantic Soviet-era ekranoplan jet hover plane needed a crew of 15! Though probably some were missile-launch guys, radar guys, and other stuff unrelated to “flying” it. @LSLGuy **[had a great post about it](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-general-aviation-thread/600499/1426)**. It had at least two “cockpits”, one for actually driving the thing, and another which seems somewhat analogous to a flight engineer’s station that had to do with controlling and monitoring the engines and other systems, both of which had two crew members each. Some interesting pics at the “Belly of the Beast” link. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-flight-engineer-do-in-the-days-of-3-man-flight-crews/928506.md?page=2)