# What did the Roman dollar and cent signs look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221 "2001-01-09T21:32:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/1 "2001-01-09T21:32:05Z")
What did the Roman dollar and cent signs look like? Someone brought up Roman accounting on another thread, so my interest is piqued. And yes, I know they didn’t call them dollars and cents, but you know what I mean. Did the ancients have handy symbols of abbreviations for these as most modern societies do? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/2 "2001-01-10T17:38:40Z")
Any WAGs? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/3 "2001-01-10T18:07:49Z")
IIRC, the Roman form of the ‘dollar’ was the _librum_, which was usually abbreviated L, and from which we get the modern British Pound symbol. Likewise, the Roman form of the penny was the _centerium_, abbreviated c, and from which we get the modern cents symbol. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/4 "2001-01-10T19:06:00Z")
Wouldn’t that be confusing? I mean, $50 = LL? $1 = LI which also means 51. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/5 "2001-01-11T12:06:42Z")
This link from the Museum of London leads to pictures of a variety of of Roman coins. [http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/menu.htm](http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/menu.htm) ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/6 "2001-01-11T18:47:36Z")
A British pound (sterling) is so called because it originally contained a pound of silver. The Latin word for pound is _libra_ (plural _librae_). The Latin word for “hundreth” is _centesimus_. I have never seen either _libra_ or _centesimus_ as units of ancient Roman coinage, but I don’t know much about the subject. The only two Roman coins I know of are: 1. the _as_ (plural _asses_), originally worth a pound of copper, but later worth much less. 2. the _denarius_ (plural _denarii_), worth 12 _asses_. The abbreviation “d” for penny in British usage comes from _denarius_. The same abbreviation is used in nail sizes. A 10d. nail is a ten-penny nail. (Apparently that means you could once buy a pound of such nails for ten (British) pennies). ---
**Author:** ![PeeQueue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@PeeQueue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeeQueue)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/7 "2001-01-11T19:28:10Z")
bibliophage: What you say kind of makes sense, but are you sure about that? I’ve heard the other explanation a few times. Besides, the British use pence, not cents, right? And it wasn’t originally 1/100th of a pound, was it? Wasn’t it a fifth of a shilling or something (which was some fraction of some other thing, etc.) And can you imagine carrying around 20 pounds sterling back then? Jeez, that’s nuts. Again, it does make sense, I just wanted to know how sure you were. PeeQueue ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/8 "2001-01-11T19:44:06Z")
There was no unit of Roman money called the _libra_. As **bibliophage** said, the _denarius_ and _as_ were popular coins, as well as the _sestertius_ and _aureus_, and later the _solidus_. The _denarius_ and _as_ were the most common coins. Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![PeeQueue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@PeeQueue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PeeQueue)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/9 "2001-01-11T19:47:31Z")
Thanks, I’ll consider myself as having received The Straight Dope. PeeQueue ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/10 "2001-01-11T19:54:09Z")
The standard coin of account was the denarius, abbrv= “d”. So an item might be listed as “Lion for games= 56d”. A denarius was a small silver coin, about the size of a dime. For millenium, that size coin was pretty standard in the worlds currencies. Thus, a standard “silver piece” is more the size of a dime, not a dollar. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/11 "2001-01-11T19:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PeeQueue \* > \*\*… besides, the British use pence, not cents, right? And it wasn’t originally 1/100th of a pound, was it? Wasn’t it a fifth of a shilling or something (which was some fraction of some other thing, etc.) \*\* The British system, cleverly known as LSD (tho’ we gave it up in the 70s 🙂 ) involved a penny being 1/12 of a shilling, and a shilling being 1/20 of a pound, with various other cutely named coins like florins scattered along the way. Plus guineas, which were 21 shillings. We were reluctant to change to a decimal system because it looked too complicated. As for a pound once weighing pound avoirdupois, I don’t know, but why not? It could only have been at a time when it was a serious amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/12 "2001-01-11T20:00:20Z")
Perhaps I didn’t explain very well. By the end of the Roman era, an _as_ was worth **much** less than a pound of copper. I don’t know if the coins themselves were copper or silver. The original British pennies were made of silver and were a bit smaller than a U.S. dime. A pound sterling wasn’t actually worth a pound of silver for very long, and pennies weren’t made of silver very long. The pound sterling was degraded in value several times and by the time the silver standard ended, it was worth about 3 ounces of silver, I think. There were always 240 pennies in a pound sterling until decimalization a few decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/13 "2001-01-11T20:55:04Z")
Thanks folks. “d” sounds right. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/14 "2001-01-12T01:09:59Z")
Danielinthewolvesden wrote: > [@](#): > > A denarius was a small silver coin, about the size of a dime. For millenium, that size coin was pretty standard in the worlds currencies. Thus, a standard “silver piece” is more the size of a dime, not a dollar. Then why does a silver piece weigh a whole 1/10 of a pound in _Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1st Edition_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/15 "2001-01-12T03:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Then why does a silver piece weigh a whole 1/10 of a pound in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1st Edition? Probably a silver piece in the game is “worth a 1/10 of a gold piece{pound}”. But the gold piece doesn’t weigh a “pound.” Rather, it is its denomination. N.B. This is conjecture on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/16 "2001-01-12T09:07:38Z")
tracer- well, in 2nd ed, they now weigh in @ 50 to the pound. Gygax & crew saw silver pieces as silver dollars & gold pieces as $20 dbl-eagles. Cp’s they saw as those old english pennies. They all wiegh in at about an ounce- and if you go for the troy 12 oz/lb, then 10/lb is not THAT crazy. But you knew that. In most of history- a “sp” would be a silver coin about the size of a dime. A 'gp" would be about the size of a nickle. CP’s varied a LOT. But many of the old roman & greek bronze coins I have are around the size of a modern US penny. Folks would rarely SPEND a gold coin (retail, that is)- it was a way of carrying/transfering wealth in a recognized fashion. Think of a “Gp” as a thousand bill (until the new world started flooding the market with gold- then it is more of a hundred bill). Or think of it this way- a “Gp” would be the wages for a skilled worker for a week, ie, a weeks salary in one coin. Later- it became a weeks salary for an UN-skilled worker. Now, since it is worth about $100, it is a DAYS salary. ---
**Author:** ![TheThill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/17 "2001-01-12T11:08:40Z")
Let’s also not forget that a very low percentage of the populace could read back then. It’s also more likely than not that most prices were open for discussion as they still are in many parts of the world. I don’t recollect ever seeing Roman “pricetags” on display at museums! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/18 "2001-01-12T20:06:33Z")
Danielinthewolvesden wrote: > [@](#): > > tracer- well, in 2nd ed, they [gold and silver pieces] now weigh in @ 50 to the pound. Gygax & crew saw silver pieces as silver dollars & gold pieces as $20 dbl-eagles. I thought it was because 1st Edition listed the weights of weapons and armor and equipment in “gold pieces.” 😉 In one place in the 1st Edition rules they say all coins are about the diameter of a U.S. quarter, while in another they say they’re about the diameter of a U.S. half-dollar. I guess it took them until 2nd Edition to make up their minds. > [@](#): > > Cp’s they saw as those old english pennies. Interestingly, before about 1857, the bronze U.S. one-cent piece was almost as big as a half dollar coin. > [@](#): > > They all wiegh in at about an ounce- and if you go for the troy 12 oz/lb, then 10/lb is not THAT crazy. But you knew that. Ah, but it’s only a pound **Troy** that is 12 ounces Troy. The “normal” pounds (Avoirdupois), which 1st Edition AD&D said a coin was 1/10 of, are 14.58333 ounces Troy. I can see rounding 12-to-the-pound up to 10-to-the-pound, but it’s a little more of a stretch to round 14.58333-to-the-pound up to 10-to-the-pound. I like the theory somebody came up with in one issue of _The Dragon_ magazine: All coins in the AD&D universe are alloyed with a mysterious super-dense metal called “Gygaxite” so that they weigh a tenth of a pound even though they’re only about the size of a U.S. half-dollar coin. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/19 "2001-01-12T20:29:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Celyn \* > **We were reluctant to change to a decimal system because it looked too complicated.** Well, that was part of the reason, but there were others. Many people noticed that since we were going from 240 pennies = 1 pound to 100 pennies = 1 pound, retailers would be forced to round prices either up or down. It didn’t take rocket science to figure they would be inclined to choose the ‘up’ option. In the inflation-riddled UK of the time, this was all we needed - one more inflationary factor. There was also the usual ‘protect our heritage’ faction, complete with at least one ‘rebel’ shop-keeper, dressed entirely in Union Jack clothing for the press cameras, ‘refusing’ to go along with the change and insisting he would maintain the old system in HIS shop. These same people (or their children) are now engaged in the holy war over pound .v. Euro, entertaining the happy delusion that anything is going to prevent us ditching the pound and joining the Euro, which will happen between the next two British elections. ---
**Author:** ![Nukeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce7236/32.png) [@Nukeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nukeman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221/20 "2001-01-12T20:41:22Z")
PeeQueue, remember it was worth more so you would never carry about that amount (20 quid) anyway, plus if you wanted a whole pound then you would get it in gold. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-roman-dollar-and-cent-signs-look-like/49221.md?page=2)