# What did the US gain from the Phillipines? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2015, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022 "2015-11-30T11:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/41 "2015-12-02T16:40:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nonsense. The Soviets were as imperialist as Britain, France, and America were. They were only opposed to other country’s empires. Yes and no. The Europeans and the US might have quibbled over _whose_ colony a particular region was, but afaik there was never any question of attempting to foster native independence by giving them the means to resist colonialism. The Soviet Union was a different animal because it was outside the capitalist system of nations: every successful Third World resistance hurt their enemies and benefited them. And while Cuba or Vietnam for examples might be heavily dependent on trade with the Soviet Union they weren’t ruled by a Soviet-appointed governor, unlike the situation in Eastern Europe where the satellite states were heavily under the Russian thumb. In fact, this is where the USSR went wrong in Afghanistan: trying to directly rule it as an imperial power. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/42 "2015-12-02T19:03:16Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And Russia. Poland, The Ukraine, Afghanistan, East Germany, etc, were all pretty much fully inhabited, so no. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/43 "2015-12-02T19:08:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Poland, The Ukraine, Afghanistan, East Germany, etc, were all pretty much fully inhabited, so no. Siberia wasn’t, so for eastward expansion, yes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/44 "2015-12-02T19:21:08Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You have the scare quotes around the wrong words. They should be enclosing “government” as it was the result of a coup d’état by the white businessmen supported by the US marines. The US Marines didn’t fire a shot\* and were there just to prevent violence. The coup d’état was not by "white businessmen " but by Queen Liliʻuokalani , who unilaterally abrogated the Constitution, going for a return to almost absolute Monarchy, stealing property based on race, and a return to the Taboo system. Not a single native so much as raised a hand to prevent the Committee of Safety from overthrowing the Queen, in fact most politically aware natives were horrified by her abrogation and wanted nothing to do with a return to the Taboo system, a nigh-Absolute Monarchy and property & voting rights based upon race. And you say " white businessmen" which is pretty racist, since Lorrin A. Thurston\*\* was born in the Islands of missionaries also born there. He was 3rd gen, but if Queen Liliʻuokalani had had her way, he would have had no rights at all, and his property could be confiscated purely on the basis of race. \*162 sailors and Marines came ashore well-armed but under orders of neutrality. The sailors and Marines did not enter the Palace grounds or take over any buildings, and never fired a shot. \*\* His father was speaker of the house of representatives of the Kingdom of Hawaii. He was also fluent in the Hawaiian language and had the Hawaiian nickname _Kakina_. So, yeah, maybe he was “white”:rolleyes: but he was born there, his father was born there and was a well loved political leader and one of his grandparents was born there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/45 "2015-12-02T19:22:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Siberia wasn’t, so for eastward expansion, yes. True. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/46 "2015-12-02T20:07:38Z")
There are a couple of flavors of imperialism. The really classic imperialism is conquering neighboring regions, and exploiting them in some way. Plunder, vassalage, setting up your guys as the new ruling class, mass enslavement, or population replacement. And so we have Rome conquering the neighboring Italian states, then neighboring areas around the Mediterranean, and then anywhere they could march armies to. And they employed all the above tactics at different times. And various European states used the above against each other. Take England. They tried to grab chunks of France, they integrated Wales and Scotland, they conquered Ireland. Or France integrating the mostly independent dukedoms of Brittany and Burgundy and kicking out the English. Or Spanish unification. All classic imperialism. But then we come to a new era, where Europeans developed some key technologies–long range sailing ships, gunpowder, and eventually industrial production. And now you could sail halfway across the world and use your advanced technology to conquer people you’d never heard of. In previous times the effort needed to conquer a single walled city was extremely high. Now bands of adventurers could conquer whole regions. So what was the fate of the newly conquered overseas empires? They weren’t integrated into the fabric of the state like border regions would be, because they weren’t border regions and the people who lived there were nothing like the neighboring countries. So a new sort of imperialism arose, which is what most people today mean when the talk about “imperialism”. The newly conquered areas were never intended to be integrated into the home nation, instead they were to be exploited in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/47 "2015-12-02T22:39:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It’s dubious they even paid off in the late 19th century. Probably places like India did, but African colonies appear to have been a money sink for European powers. Yes and no. For the States engaged in it was typically a net loss, sure. For (some) private entrepreneurs, financiers and industrialists however, the plunderin’ was good as were the new markets. Oh, and for the gun salesmen, obviously. Same ol’ same ol’. Still, generally speaking investing in the colonies was less profitable than investing right at home. Getting \*other \*people to invest in your pie-in-the-sky colonial railroad or rubber plantation was still a good way to get rich(er) quick though ;). [QUOTE=DrDeth] That’s not generally considered Imperialism or Colony building. [/QUOTE] Like hell it ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/48 "2015-12-02T23:12:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Like hell it ain’t. Whether you want to call it colonialism or not is irrelevant. The point is that the westward expansion of the US was different in philosophy, goals, means, and outcome as compared to European imperialism as practiced in the 18-19th century. The US (mostly) didn’t have to practice that kind of imperialism since we had huge tracts of mostly-empty land to expand into. I am curious, though. Did _any_ European colonies ever gain first-class legal recognition in the way that Hawaii did? I know there are a bunch that are along the lines of Puerto Rico, where the people may be citizens but still don’t have all the same rights. But I wonder if any of them had an outcome other than independence or hanging on as a territory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/49 "2015-12-02T23:25:31Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Whether you want to call it colonialism or not is irrelevant. The point is that the westward expansion of the US was different in philosophy, goals, means, and outcome as compared to European imperialism as practiced in the 18-19th century. The US (mostly) didn’t have to practice that kind of imperialism since we had huge tracts of mostly-empty land to expand into. Correct. He is confusing Expansionism with Colonial Imperialism, which is a subset of Expansionism. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/50 "2015-12-02T23:33:49Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > But the Canadians were so polite about it all that the First Nations peoples hardly noticed they were being crowded out. I realize that you’re just joking here, but this is pretty cringeworthy. Believe me, they noticed. And we weren’t all that polite about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/51 "2015-12-02T23:35:51Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I am curious, though. Did _any_ European colonies ever gain first-class legal recognition in the way that Hawaii did? I know there are a bunch that are along the lines of Puerto Rico, where the people may be citizens but still don’t have all the same rights. But I wonder if any of them had an outcome other than independence or hanging on as a territory. > **[French Guiana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana)** > > French Guiana (/ɡiˈɑːnə/ or /ɡiˈænə/; French: Guyane, \[ɡɥijan\] ⓘ; French Guianese Creole: Lagwiyann \[la.ɡwi.jãn\]) is an overseas department and region of France located on the northern coast of South America in the Guianas and the West Indies. Bordered by Suriname to the west and Brazil to the east and south, French Guiana covers a total area of 84,000 km2 (32,000 sq mi) and a land area of 83,534 km2 (32,253 sq mi), and is inhabited by 295,385 people (Jan. 2024 estimate). > French Guiana is the ... ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/52 "2015-12-02T23:38:19Z")
Ummm… Northern Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/53 "2015-12-03T00:20:00Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This played a big part with Hawaii too. At the time we grabbed it, Britain, Japan and Russia all had their eyes on it too. > [@DrDeth](#): > > We didnt “grab it”. The government actively lobbied for annexation. We did grab it. I lived in Hawaii and am very aware of the history. It was a total scam by the pineapple barons, all of them American. One of them, [Lorrin Thurston](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorrin_A._Thurston), headed the provisional government that illegally overthrew Queen Liliuokalani in 1893. _He_ lobbied the US government for annexation, but the monarchy, represented in Washington, by Princess Victoria Kaiulani, argued that the overthrow had been illegal. They were not successful. I am glad the US has Hawaii, I do not subscribe to the tiny present Free Hawaii Movement at all, but to say Hawaii went willingly is being disingenuous. I was in Honolulu in the early 1990s when downtown they staged a day-by-day re-creation of the events of the overthrow on the 100th anniversary, complete with period costumes. It’s a given in Hawaii that it was a steal. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/54 "2015-12-03T00:40:03Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Ummm… Northern Ireland? Doesn’t fit at all. The territory was held by England long before the wave of colonialism that we’re talking about. Also, the politics of the UK is bizarre. Obviously, NI was not made a part of England. But then, neither are Scotland or Wales, so maybe that doesn’t matter. Anyway, it’s complicated and weird and not analogous to US statehood. French Guiana and the other overseas regions of France appear to be good examples, though it seems this is actually a fairly recent change, with their powers improving in 1982. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/55 "2015-12-03T01:05:36Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I was in Honolulu in the early 1990s when downtown they staged a day-by-day re-creation of the events of the overthrow on the 100th anniversary, complete with period costumes. It’s a given in Hawaii that it was a steal. I lived there at that time also. [Haunani Kay Trask,](http://listverse.com/2010/04/01/10-more-terrible-bigots-in-modern-history/) what a dreadful person. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/56 "2015-12-03T01:09:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As Dr. Strangelove sez, Americans followed their settlers west, into lands that were mostly empty (empty due to Europeans accidentally spreading plague, true), then quickly bringing them into America as full fledged states. As soon as you say they were mostly empty lands, you are taking the classic imperial line that “nobody there, so it’s okay for us to take it.” It’s the same line that the English, French and Spanish used along the east coasts of the Americas. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Very few revolts. Aside, of course, from the Indian Wars, which went on from the founding of the United States in the late 18th century on into the 20th century, with the last conflict in 1924. The frontier was both a settlement frontier and a military frontier, steadily moving west. One estimate I have seen is that in the 1850’s and 1860’s, the US government was spending $25 million dollars fighting the Indians of the west. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The natives were mostly displaced or ignored, not enslaved- but yes, when they fought back we killed them. Hardly a Golden moment for us, true. Again, classic imperialism: if the original owners of the land don’t surrender, military action to kill them and subjugate them. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/57 "2015-12-03T01:12:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Nope, they’re different. > > Manifest Destiny sucked, yes, and was both catalyst and excuse for some of the worst atrocities ever committed by our country’s government, but it wasn’t Imperialism because the **purpose** of Manifest Destiny was to increase the borders of the United States of America and **not to subjugate existing nations beneath the rule of an American Empire**. So you’re saying that the indigenous inhabitants of North America weren’t nations? Why not? They certainly got subjugated and conquered. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/58 "2015-12-03T01:21:25Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Doesn’t fit at all. The territory was held by England long before the wave of colonialism that we’re talking about. Also, the politics of the UK is bizarre. Obviously, NI was not made a part of England. But then, neither are Scotland or Wales, so maybe that doesn’t matter. Anyway, it’s complicated and weird and not analogous to US statehood. It’s a vague qualification. Better to trace back in history when imperial powers started realizing that territories should be given the right to self-determination, rather than a benevolent assimilation. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/59 "2015-12-03T01:22:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As soon as you say they were mostly empty lands, you are taking the classic imperial line that “nobody there, so it’s okay for us to take it.” It’s the same line that the English, French and Spanish used along the east coasts of the Americas. No one’s claiming it was morally right. But there’s an obvious difference in outcomes between settling lightly-occupied lands adjacent to your own territory vs. shipping settlers to some populated remote area. In the former case, the land quickly becomes “yours” by sheer force of numbers. In the latter case, you almost inevitably run into a situation where a tiny minority oppresses the natives, which is just not sustainable. It’s not a path for long-term territory expansion. It seems to me that some people want to call any kind of disreputable land-grabbing as colonialism and leave it at that. That’s fine, but it’s an extremely superficial view, and doesn’t lead to any kind of insight about the patterns of history. You need a tad more detail for that. Do you think $25M was a lot or a little? It seems like a tiny amount to me. Inflation has been about 30x since then, so it was less than a billion in adjusted dollars. Of course the total budget was also much less. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022/60 "2015-12-03T01:22:58Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I lived there at that time also. [Haunani Kay Trask,](http://listverse.com/2010/04/01/10-more-terrible-bigots-in-modern-history/) what a dreadful person. Were you, by chance, a UH student too? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-the-us-gain-from-the-phillipines/739022.md?page=4)