# What did Walter White do that was so evil **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 11, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507 "2015-08-11T00:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/281 "2015-08-21T19:32:00Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Why on Earth would you assume the purpose of that scene is for exposition? It’s obviously so that Walt gets a chance to gloat about it before he dies. Has nothing to do with telling the viewers what happened. No, but it may have had something to do with Walt telling Jesse what happened. Jesse hears the whole conversation, pausing and looking back at Walter as he finishes and throws the phone on the ground before climbing into the car. That’s one less complication for Jesse as Walter lets him know he has eliminated the last of the direct threats to Jesse’s life. ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/282 "2015-08-21T19:57:27Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Not ricin. It was lily of the valley. It just appears to be ricin, because… oh, it’s a long story. You’re right, my apologies. All it took was you saying that to bring it back. I watched Breaking Bad over a two-week period almost a year ago, and have forgotten some details. If that is all I screwed up, I’ll be happy though. 🙂 After I posted several times earlier in this thread today, I even thought something along the lines of “I bet I’m forgetting/misremembering some major story point/points that completely invalidates my argument/arguments and makes me look like an idiot/jackass/fascist/dumbass.” It wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/283 "2015-08-21T20:10:41Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > If that is all I screwed up, I’ll be happy though. Hey, there are lots of things that I screw up, forget and misremember. Some of them are on display in this very thread. And when it happens, I feel embarrassed, because no one likes to get things wrong or be corrected. But then I think: Wait, what if I \*did \*have complete and encyclopedic knowledge at my fingertips of five full seasons of a TV show? Wouldn’t that make me some kind of weirdo? So I think maybe we’re OK. ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/284 "2015-08-21T20:16:56Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > He doesn’t call her, he picks up Todd’s phone when Lydia calls it. Which is a minor point, that I’m mentioning just to have an excuse to link to a clip of Todd’s hilarious [ringtone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMIy1RhCYSo). > > BTW, I’m still a bit pissed off that Walt told her. The earlier scene where she puts the ricin-laced stevia in her tea makes what happens perfectly clear, and it felt patronizing for the show to spell it out in such detail to the audience. Especially since this show usually assumes that the viewers are geniuses, rather than idots. > > But I guess that Walt was thinking: “I’m going to make damned sure that no will be arguing over _this_, at least, on message boards after I’m dead.” I thought it was put in just for the audience’s satisfaction to see Lydia pay for her sins, and her face when she finds out Walter got her. I THOUGHT that before I read your post, that is. You are probably correct. There are so many people that are sooo dumb they miss ANY subtlety in any type of cinema/television/videogames. My brother-in-law, bless his heart, is a perfect example. I would add literature to the list, but that type never reads anything but videogame magazines. Listen to this, this is HILARIOUS, and I swear it is true. My aforementioned BIL, when he found out how much time I spend reading, said “Man, am I glad I don’t like to read! I read so slow, I wouldn’t have time for anything else!”. Three days later, he was over with his best friend (who is about the exact opposite of my BIL, except they both love videogames, but so do I), and his friend says “You know what I think is funny, when I hear someone brag or even mention that they don’t like to read. I think to myself ‘you’re actually admitting that you’re a moron? What a fucking idiot’” I about fell on the floor laughing and told him what my BIL had said the other day, my BIL face turning all red saying “uhhh that’s not what I meant”. Yes, he is every bit the moron you would think he is. Graduated high school with a C average, about the same time he received $25,000 after taxes in a settlement, spent it all on football t-shirts, video games, and taking his girlfriend’s family out to dinner instead of college. Never played a single game of organized football in his life, yet thought he was going to be a successful walk-on to the Clemson Tigers, I mean a starter, despite not going to any college, much less Clemson. Thought he could go to tech school and get a degree in “Professional Football Coaching” and be a head NFL coach immediately after graduating. He Has never written a line of computer code in his life, only knows ‘C’ has the third letter in the alphabet and thinks ‘C++’ is a really good grade, but thinks he is going to become a successful app designer because he went and bought some dumb beginners book on app design (even though he can barely read to begin with). I am not exaggerating ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/285 "2015-08-21T20:38:12Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > My brother-in-law, bless his heart, is a perfect example. Is his name Hank? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/286 "2015-08-21T21:30:43Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > The kid in the desert, the only other deaths that compares (that I remember) is Andrea’s. Andrea was also a complete innocent, AND a single mother. Hank and his partner’s deaths are up there too, but on a lower level, since they voluntarily have dangerous jobs where something like this is always a possibility. But they were still innocents shot down doing a heroic job. For me, the death that was hardest to take was Andrea’s. She was a sweetheart who was putting her life back together and was killed for no other reason than to punish Jesse. We had gotten to know her over several seasons. The kid was an innocent too, but we knew nothing about him (aside from the fact that he liked tarantulas). His death was accidental in a sense, because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. As you say, Hank’s death was tragic but also heroic. He knew the job was dangerous when he took it. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/287 "2015-08-21T21:42:50Z")
It seems that we’re all on the same wavelength concerning Andrea. Here’s a new potential evil test: Beyond Todd (who has already passed/flunked depending on how you look at it), which characters on the show would have been capable of killing Andrea? Or ordered it? Mike? No way. Lydia? She wouldn’t have been able to do it herself, that’s pretty clear. She doesn’t get her hands dirty. But getting someone else to do it? Maybe. Could Walt have done it? ---
**Author:** ![Corporal\_Nobbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Corporal\_Nobbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corporal_Nobbs)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/288 "2015-08-21T21:51:51Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > I thought it was put in just for the audience’s satisfaction to see Lydia pay for her sins, and her face when she finds out Walter got her. I THOUGHT that before I read your post, that is. You are probably correct. There are so many people that are sooo dumb they miss ANY subtlety in any type of cinema/television/videogames. My brother-in-law, bless his heart, is a perfect example. I would add literature to the list, but that type never reads anything but videogame magazines. > > Listen to this, this is HILARIOUS, and I swear it is true. My aforementioned BIL, when he found out how much time I spend reading, said “Man, am I glad I don’t like to read! I read so slow, I wouldn’t have time for anything else!”. Three days later, he was over with his best friend (who is about the exact opposite of my BIL, except they both love videogames, but so do I), and his friend says “You know what I think is funny, when I hear someone brag or even mention that they don’t like to read. I think to myself ‘you’re actually admitting that you’re a moron? What a fucking idiot’” I about fell on the floor laughing and told him what my BIL had said the other day, my BIL face turning all red saying “uhhh that’s not what I meant”. Yes, he is every bit the moron you would think he is. Graduated high school with a C average, about the same time he received $25,000 after taxes in a settlement, spent it all on football t-shirts, video games, and taking his girlfriend’s family out to dinner instead of college. Never played a single game of organized football in his life, yet thought he was going to be a successful walk-on to the Clemson Tigers, I mean a starter, despite not going to any college, much less Clemson. Thought he could go to tech school and get a degree in “Professional Football Coaching” and be a head NFL coach immediately after graduating. He Has never written a line of computer code in his life, only knows ‘C’ has the third letter in the alphabet and thinks ‘C++’ is a really good grade, but thinks he is going to become a successful app designer because he went and bought some dumb beginners book on app design (even though he can barely read to begin with). I am not exaggerating You dont come across very well here… smug and patronising to be honest. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/289 "2015-08-21T21:53:50Z")
Edit to the above: Capable of killing Andrea, or of ordering it? (My ideas are of course fantastic, but my grammar apparently sucks.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/290 "2015-08-21T22:04:46Z")
Hang on, wait. _puts down bottle_ Did I really just propose “capable of shooting an innocent single mother in the head, preferably at point blank, and preferably without remorse” as a benchmark for evil? What kind of crapsack world do _I_ live in? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/291 "2015-08-21T22:09:53Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Mike? No way. Agree. Even though he was a killer, Mike had an ethical code. He was aghast at Lydia’s idea of eliminating his guys after they were arrested. > [@](#): > > Lydia? She wouldn’t have been able to do it herself, that’s pretty clear. She doesn’t get her hands dirty. But getting someone else to do it? Maybe. No maybe. Lydia would have ordered in a heartbeat if she saw any advantage in it. Her own interests were her only motivation. > [@](#): > > Could Walt have done it? Not for the reason that it was done, to punish Jesse. But if he rationalized it as the only way he could protect himself, probably yes. After all, he was prepared to kill Gale himself (and had Jesse do it instead), even though Gale idolized him and was innocent of any crime except cooking meth. Although he didn’t intend to kill Brock, he was prepared to risk it to manipulate Jesse. Walt was capable of doing almost anything for his own self-preservation. He could have come up with some rationalization. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/292 "2015-08-22T00:59:43Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > Is anyone purely evil? I mean 100%, not 95%, in all their waking actions and thoughts. … In fiction? Yes. Too often. And too rarely are the we shown adequately ambiguous characters. When they are they usually fall clearly as “anti-heros” … who still end up being more hero than villain and usually end up doing “the right things” despite their many flaws. Walt does the wrong things initially deluding himself that they are for noble heroic reasons. Walt has some fictional hero attributes (the underdog, put-upon, not respected, initially appearing to care about providing for his family) and they could have gone the more standard anti-hero route … but they made it more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/293 "2015-08-22T01:28:46Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I think you meant “someone could even make a case that killing someone out of sadism is more evil”, and the point is motive. It’s **not** “unjustified” that Todd shot the kid - he obviously had justification, and that justification was to ensure that they weren’t caught for the major crime they were committing. Of course you can reject that as being _adequate_ justification for murdering an innocent, but the justification in that case is self-preservation. Whereas if someone kills for the sake of thrills or sexual gratification, that’s a much more sinister motive in my estimation. > > And no, I don’t have kids. Doesn’t matter though. Nope, I meant what I said. Not that I believe sadism is a less evil reason. I’ll give you the justification thing. It’s an inadequate justification. Killing for pleasure is also an inadequate justification. They are both evil reasons. And not having children makes all the difference in the world, its why you’re able to see this as a matter of logic and semantics, and I see it as an intentional killing of someone’s precious child. Its how I was 90% sure you have never had children yourself, so obviously it does matter influence one’s opinion on this. The absolute worst thing a parent can thing of is for something to happen to their children, and/or for them to just disappear without a trace. You have NO idea of that fear, of that terror, just to see it in a fictional setting. If what Todd did is not “evil” than nothing is. And I know you think you do know and that having kids is irrelevant as to judging the “evilness” of what Todd did do that child, and that’s ok. No one does until they have children themselves. And the vast majority of parents are going to agree with me, and I can tell you, the vast majority of us consider your opinion on this worthless (in regards to Todd murdering the child). This is purely a subjective argument, (is an act “evil” or just bad), clearly we disagree on what constitutes evil. That’s ok. I probably would have agreed with you when I was 20 or 25. ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/294 "2015-08-22T01:42:50Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Is his name Hank? 😉 LOL. He makes Hank look like a bloody GENIUS! ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/295 "2015-08-22T01:48:30Z")
> [@Corporal\_Nobbs](#): > > You dont come across very well here… smug and patronising to be honest. ☹ I know my writing is atrocious, but if you don’t see the humor in that, then any criticism from you is a compliment. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TygerTrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TygerTrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TygerTrip)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/296 "2015-08-22T01:51:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > In fiction? Yes. Too often. And too rarely are the we shown adequately ambiguous characters. > > When they are they usually fall clearly as “anti-heros” … who still end up being more hero than villain and usually end up doing “the right things” despite their many flaws. > > Walt does the wrong things initially deluding himself that they are for noble heroic reasons. Walt has some fictional hero attributes (the underdog, put-upon, not respected, initially appearing to care about providing for his family) and they could have gone the more standard anti-hero route … but they made it more interesting. Well, yea, definitely in fiction. I guess what I meant was that makes Walter’s evil more realistic and interesting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/297 "2015-08-22T02:02:44Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > The absolute worst thing a parent can thing of is for something to happen to their children, and/or for them to just disappear without a trace. You have NO idea of that fear, of that terror, just to see it in a fictional setting. Someone pointed out that Breaking Bad, to an extent, is one long horror movie that runs on [adult fear](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdultFear). Which is why young people are probably less upset by the show. Kids probably just find it boring, mostly. There is very little gore, when you think about it (although there is some). And middle aged people, like us old farts around here, are _scared shitless_ by it, and end up spending hours in these threads in lieu of therapy sessions. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/298 "2015-08-22T09:16:32Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > Nope, I meant what I said. Not that I believe sadism is a less evil reason. I’ll give you the justification thing. It’s an inadequate justification. Killing for pleasure is also an inadequate justification. They are both evil reasons. And not having children makes all the difference in the world, its why you’re able to see this as a matter of logic and semantics, and I see it as an intentional killing of someone’s precious child. Its how I was 90% sure you have never had children yourself, so obviously it does matter influence one’s opinion on this. The absolute worst thing a parent can thing of is for something to happen to their children, and/or for them to just disappear without a trace. You have NO idea of that fear, of that terror, just to see it in a fictional setting. If what Todd did is not “evil” than nothing is. And I know you think you do know and that having kids is irrelevant as to judging the “evilness” of what Todd did do that child, and that’s ok. No one does until they have children themselves. And the vast majority of parents are going to agree with me, and I can tell you, the vast majority of us consider your opinion on this worthless (in regards to Todd murdering the child). This is purely a subjective argument, (is an act “evil” or just bad), clearly we disagree on what constitutes evil. That’s ok. I probably would have agreed with you when I was 20 or 25. The scary thing I find when discussing Breaking Bad is how many parents take the attitude that doing harm to others is perfectly justified if it’s for the benefit of their family. You empathize with the parents who lost their kid, which is a good thing, but many others would quite willingly gun down an innocent child if it meant protecting their own progeny. I don’t think sadism is a prerequisite for someone being evil. I think good and evil is really just a continuum of how willing you are to put your own wants and needs ahead of others. Sadists harm others because they enjoy it, it benefits them. Todd kills without malice because it benefits him. They may not be equivalent, but they’re both on the evil in in my view. Regarding the phone call to Lydia, telling her about the poison was probably the best thing for her at that moment. It gave her a chance to put her things in order, maybe use her last minutes/hours to write a letter to her daughter. I think Walt was just gloating rather than being nice, but it’s interesting that it probably was the merciful thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Corporal\_Nobbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Corporal\_Nobbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corporal_Nobbs)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/299 "2015-08-22T10:07:27Z")
> [@TygerTrip](#): > > I know my writing is atrocious, but if you don’t see the humor in that, then any criticism from you is a compliment. 😛 Its not funny to snark at people behind their backs, he may be deluded and a dreamer, but to say what he has been doing with his life is hilarious. Well crack on with that mate… ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507/300 "2015-08-22T10:08:53Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > It seems that we’re all on the same wavelength concerning Andrea. > > \*\*Here’s a new potential evil test: Beyond Todd (who has already passed/flunked depending on how you look at it), which characters on the show would have been capable of killing Andrea? Or ordered it? > > Mike? No way\*\*. > > Lydia? She wouldn’t have been able to do it herself, that’s pretty clear. She doesn’t get her hands dirty. But getting someone else to do it? Maybe. > > Could Walt have done it? Emphasis added. Andrea safe in Mike’s hands? I don’t see it. It is made very clear in the show Mike is a trusted ‘fixer’ (for want of a better expression) to Gus. He is unswervingly loyal and literally unquestioning. There was the episode, after Jesse has killed Gale, where Gus orders Mike to take Jesse on a money pick up and arrange for Jesse to be a hero. Afterwards (I paraphrase because I cannot find the exact quote) Gus asks Mike ‘Do you know why I ordered you to do it?’ and Mike replies ‘No. But I know better than to ask.’ He is literally unquestioning. OK, this wasn’t a murder. I feel the point is made, YMMV. Now would Gus order the ‘innocent’ Andrea to be killed? Within the show it is made clear Walter believes Gus will kill his ‘innocent’ family. I see no reason why Gus would hesitate to kill Andrea if he saw a business reason for doing so. The same way the Nazis saw a business reason for doing so. So would Mike do it personally? Maybe, maybe not. He has his ten men plus a knowledge of local hit men. He might suggest an alternative to killing, he might subcontract the kill to others to do. But within the show the most likely outcome of Gus directly ordering Andrea killed is Mike would make it happen. TCMF-2L [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-walter-white-do-that-was-so-evil/727507.md?page=16)