# What did we learn yesterday, or WTF. didn't people take civics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821 "2004-11-03T19:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/21 "2004-11-04T13:11:20Z")
Tossing this into The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/22 "2004-11-04T13:25:17Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > The fact that 51% voted for Bush is a testament to blinding ignorance and utter stupidity. This bothers me. Why because one doesn’t agree with the outcome, immediately the voters for Bush are ignorant and stupid? Unless you can cite some statistics this is a false statement. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/23 "2004-11-04T13:32:37Z")
[Some statistics](http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf) (PDF). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/24 "2004-11-04T13:46:29Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > [Some statistics](http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf) (PDF). Bloody hell, that’s shocking. (Prediction: poll will shortly be debunked, then counterdebunked, then names will be called, bla bla ad nauseam.) ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/25 "2004-11-04T13:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=gfloyd She said it didn’t matter and that voting was a right, not a duty. Fine, let’s say it is a right, not a duty, but does that mean we shouldn’t exercise it? I drove almost an 1.5 hours, round trip, to go home and vote. For my roommate, it was more like 3 or 4 hours, including 2 train rides. [/QUOTE] Voting is not a right; it’s closer to a priviledge. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/26 "2004-11-04T14:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=DougC - Hey, sorry–some of us _like_ to own guns, _like_ the idea of killing terrorists on their own doorsteps and _don’t_ like the idea of the US taking orders from the UN. [/QUOTE] Ah, you like to kneejerk on NRA glurge, you like the idea of killing brown people with strange religions in weird parts of the world and you’ve been reading _Free Republic_ again, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/27 "2004-11-04T14:08:47Z")
And I obviously can’t code worth a Bush’s conscience… Oh, and this… > [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Voting is not a right; it’s closer to a priviledge. …definitely deserves a :dubious: . ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/28 "2004-11-04T14:10:29Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > That’s sort of a trick question. The defendant wouldn’t be in court if there wasn’t some evidence that he may have committed a crime. That doesn’t mean that he is guilty. That defeats the whole point of presumption of innocence. It’s not an abstract concept. A jury is supposed to assume only that the defendant is innocent until the state proves guilt. As a juror I know that someone else thought there was probably cause but at the start of the trial no one has proven anything to me. Do you think innocent people have never been indicted or brought to trial? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/29 "2004-11-04T14:24:46Z")
Last week I had to explain to someone that registering to vote doesn’t cost anything. Someone who told me that they don’t vote because ‘It’s not like they actually count the votes.’ After human beings all over the planet have fought for time immemorial to be enfranchised and have a say in the government they live under, why in the hell would _anyone_ deliberately silence their own voice? And to all the people who say ‘Why vote? Things will never change.’ you’re right. If you never vote, things will never change because politicians will never realize that there’s that threat of _losing your job_ if you continue to ignore the will of the people you represent. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/30 "2004-11-04T14:44:16Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > That defeats the whole point of presumption of innocence. It’s not an abstract concept. A jury is supposed to assume only that the defendant is innocent until the state proves guilt. As a juror I know that someone else thought there was probably cause but at the start of the trial no one has proven anything to me. Do you think innocent people have never been indicted or brought to trial? There’s a difference between legal fictions and reality. I’ve served on a jury in a criminal case. As a juror, I was required to base my decision on the evidence presented in court, and to assume that the defendant was innocent unless proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. As a person with a brain, I know that the police _usually_ have a good reason to arrest someone. They don’t just pick people off the street at random. I have no trouble keeping the two ideas separate from each other, and presuming the defendant to be innocent when serving on a jury. In the case I served on, we found the defendant innocent of one charge (breaking and entering), even though he was probably guilty, because the prosecution failed to prove its case for that charge. We found the defendant guilty of another charge (possession of stolen property) where there was sufficient evidence to convince the jury that he was guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/31 "2004-11-04T14:53:06Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > “when you see the defendant do you assume he might be guilty or he wouldn’t be here?” If they excluded everyone who got it wrong they would have needed a new jury pool. ☹ I don’t see anything wrong with either answer. As a juror, assuming that the defendant **MIGHT** be guilty does not prevent me from doing my job at weighing the evidence. In fact, I could possibly cast a vote for aquital while _still_ assuming that the defendant **might** be guilty. Did the lawyer in your example understand the concept of reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/32 "2004-11-04T15:01:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And I obviously can’t code worth a Bush’s conscience… > > Oh, and this… > > …definitely deserves a :dubious: . A right is irrevocable. Prisoners and ex-cons can’t vote in some US states. Also, the constitution doesn’t directly establish a right to vote, but a prohibition against discriminating votes based on adult age, sex, or race. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/33 "2004-11-04T15:08:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And I obviously can’t code worth a Bush’s conscience… > > Oh, and this… > > …definitely deserves a :dubious: . Nope, he’s correct. Voting is not a right, it’s a privilege. You do not have a constitutional right to vote. It would not take a constitutional amendment for Congress to strip your ability to vote away from you, as long as it is not done on the basis of race, gender or age (if you are over 18). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/34 "2004-11-04T15:09:14Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > A right is irrevocable. Prisoners and ex-cons can’t vote in some US states. Also, the constitution doesn’t directly establish a right to vote, but a prohibition against discriminating votes based on adult age, sex, or race. Second Amendment rights are curtailed for felons as well. Are you going to argue that owning a gun is a privilege, as well? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/35 "2004-11-04T15:23:54Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > Why because one doesn’t agree with the outcome, immediately the voters for Bush are ignorant and stupid? They are not ignorant and stupid because they voted for Bush. They voted for Bush because they are ignorant and stupid. Two different concepts. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/36 "2004-11-04T15:25:02Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > Hey, sorry–some of us _like_ to own guns, _like_ the idea of killing terrorists on their own doorsteps and _don’t_ like the idea of the US taking orders from the UN. ~ Please explain this “fighting them on our doorsteps” concept to me, it doesn’t make any sense. Of course you don’t even have to worry about terrorism, because good 'ol NYC will be taking the consequences of our national actions, maybe DC too. As far as not taking orders from the UN, well everyone has their opinion. Here’s mine. From time to time our country and the UN and members will have conflicts over courses of action. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem is when we tell them to fuck off and call them worthless, etc, etc. So to put it bluntly, IT’S THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED STUPID! (not calling you stupid btw). Then my irony meter explodes when we tell the world to fuck off we’re starting this war, you’re all a bunch of pussies, and then ask for help. Also Keep in mind that everyone that argued SH had no WMD (IIRCS France and Germany were in that group) WAS CORRECT. Christ, even if we ate some crow over it, it would do us a world of good. These guys won’t admit _any_ mistake whatsoever. BTW, the word is Colin Powell is out the door (his choice). ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/37 "2004-11-04T16:00:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Second Amendment rights are curtailed for felons as well. Are you going to argue that owning a gun is a privilege, as well? Gun ownership is more of a right as worded in the constitution. Its just that nobody wants to take the case for allowing prisoners the right to carry firearms to the Supreme Court when there are greater injustices to be righted. Voting is framed as a privilege even in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/38 "2004-11-04T16:13:26Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Of course you don’t even have to worry about terrorism, because good 'ol NYC will be taking the consequences of our national actions, maybe DC too. (Cue the cowboys around a campfire) NEW YORK CITY?!?!? But you must realize that many people in the USA hate NYC and DC. New York is the New Sodom and is the epicenter of Jewish Homosexual Liberality. Washington is where all those worthless politicians are and where the bureaucrats suckle at the teat of our taxes. Many people are not entirely joking when they say that they’d just as soon have NYC and Washington DC wiped from the face of the Earth, so when you think they don’t care that terrorists will target it you are right. They don’t really care and might be smugly pleased it it were. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/39 "2004-11-04T16:14:21Z")
I don’t think of voting as a right, or a duty, or a privilege. Voting is taking responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/40 "2004-11-04T16:16:05Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > They are not ignorant and stupid because they voted for Bush. They voted for Bush because they are ignorant and stupid. Two different concepts. I’m seeing calls all over the place for a more united America. I seriously doubt this is the way to go about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=3)