# What did we learn yesterday, or WTF. didn't people take civics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821 "2004-11-03T19:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gfloyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d2c977/32.png) [@gfloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gfloyd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/41 "2004-11-04T16:24:47Z")
We’ve been debating this IRL for a day now, and I’ve determined that voting is not only a duty, but a gift. People fought and died to give us what we have. Refusing to vote is refusing a gift bought and paid for by others blood, sweat and tears. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/42 "2004-11-04T16:34:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Many people are not entirely joking when they say that they’d just as soon have NYC and Washington DC wiped from the face of the Earth, so when you think they don’t care that terrorists will target it you are right. They don’t really care and might be smugly pleased it it were. Fucking A you’re totally right. Brooklyn should invade the midwest. We’d stomp them and be home in time for 40s of Olde English and Chappell. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/43 "2004-11-04T16:40:12Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I’m seeing calls all over the place for a more united America. I seriously doubt this is the way to go about it. If you think America is going to get _more_ united, let it go, it ain’t happening. Anyone who appeals to one side will alienate the other. A little appeal, a little alienation. A lot of appeal, a lot of alienation. It’s a zero sum game now. Now what we have is 50 million folks totally on each side with practically no one in the middle. At least that’s how it’ll end up after a few more years of Bush. The decline of America continues. MY question is what’s next? East and West America? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/44 "2004-11-04T16:52:43Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > That’s sort of a trick question. The defendant wouldn’t be in court if there wasn’t some evidence that he may have committed a crime. That doesn’t mean that he is guilty. A full answer to that question might go along the lines of, “Well, I assume that there has been some finding of probable cause regarding his guilt, or he wouldn’t be here, but I don’t know what facts might have been used to establish that probable cause. In any event, I need to hear facts that will convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that he’s guilty, and right now I haven’t heard a single such fact. So my presumption right now is that he’s not guilty.” ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/45 "2004-11-04T16:53:04Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > If you think America is going to get _more_ united, let it go, it ain’t happening. > > Anyone who appeals to one side will alienate the other. A little appeal, a little alienation. A lot of appeal, a lot of alienation. It’s a zero sum game now. Now what we have is 50 million folks totally on each side with practically no one in the middle. At least that’s how it’ll end up after a few more years of Bush. > > The decline of America continues. MY question is what’s next? East and West America? I’m not saying we WILL get more united. However, it is disingenuous at best for some to bewail the division of America while simultaneously branding more than 50 million people as “ignorant and stupid.” There were many, many issues surrounding this campaign. To attempt to boil down a vote for a particular candidate as a vote for stem-cell research, or a vote against gay marriage, is an exercise in _reductio ad absurdum_. I’m frankly amazed at the number of people who are either ecstatically happy or suicidally depressed based on this election. It bespeaks of a horrible lack of perspective on their part. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/46 "2004-11-04T17:03:16Z")
Well, let’s see: 1 - He was either lying or incompetent when he started the Iraq war, 2 - He’s been stunningly incompetent in the prosecution of the Iraq war. That takes care of his major duty as President, commander-in-chief. Among his lesser duties is the signing and vetoing of bills, which veto power he was given so that he could exercise it in the national interest from time to time. Hasn’t done that once. So, forget a more united America. You voted for and rehired an incompetent. We on the other side hold you responsible for it, and intend to do so mercilessly for the next four years. Deal with it. As for what the people in the world who can count think of it, take a gander at what’s happened to the dollar since Tuesday night: [http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT\_DXY0](http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0) And that, believe me, will only be the start. We’re all going to have to pay for your negligence in rehiring this idiot. So you can take your unity and stuff it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/47 "2004-11-04T17:09:11Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I’m frankly amazed at the number of people who are either ecstatically happy or suicidally depressed based on this election. It bespeaks of a horrible lack of perspective on their part. Speaks of a horrible lack of perspective? All the signs are pointing to some “serious” change on the horizon. Go read a history book. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/48 "2004-11-04T17:23:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > you like the idea of killing brown people with strange religions in weird parts of the world They don’t have to be brown! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/49 "2004-11-04T17:27:56Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Nope, he’s correct. Voting is not a right, it’s a privilege. You do not have a constitutional right to vote. It would not take a constitutional amendment for Congress to strip your ability to vote away from you, as long as it is not done on the basis of race, gender or age (if you are over 18). So, a law taking the right to vote away from people living in precincts which voted more that 50% Democrat in the last election would be constutitional? And a law taking the right to vote away from people who earn less than $100,000 per annum would bne constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/50 "2004-11-04T17:30:43Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > The decline of America continues. MY question is what’s next? East and West America? I’d prefer north & south, but then we’d still have a war over who has to take Fresno. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/51 "2004-11-04T17:39:12Z")
There’s always [this possibility.](http://www.polarismine.com/newcanada.gif) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/52 "2004-11-04T17:41:28Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > There’s always [this possibility.](http://www.polarismine.com/newcanada.gif) Looks good to me. We’d have some nukes right? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/53 "2004-11-04T17:43:06Z")
Sure. And they can have Alaska, we’ll take Hawaii. Map’s a bit off about that. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/54 "2004-11-04T17:56:34Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I’m not saying we WILL get more united. However, it is disingenuous at best for some to bewail the division of America while simultaneously branding more than 50 million people as “ignorant and stupid.” Ah, but I have not been one of the “Can’t we all just get along?” types. I consider anybody who voted for Bush to be either an ignoramus or a person whose greed has blinded him to reality. I have little respect for the political beliefs and and understand of reality of slightly more than half of all American voters. They will get my respect when they have earned it but for now they are wallowing in their ignorance. > [@](#): > > There were many, many issues surrounding this campaign. To attempt to boil down a vote for a particular candidate as a vote for stem-cell research, or a vote against gay marriage, is an exercise in _reductio ad absurdum_. Yet many voters have been quoted as making precisely that simplification. “I am pro-life and Bush is pro-life so I voted for Bush.” > [@](#): > > I’m frankly amazed at the number of people who are either ecstatically happy or suicidally depressed based on this election. It bespeaks of a horrible lack of perspective on their part. Not depressed. Just aware of a gulf between what is and what should be. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/55 "2004-11-04T18:01:16Z")
Further to the point: [Financial Times: Dollar slumps to nine-year lows](http://news.ft.com/cms/s/00474e04-2e53-11d9-a86b-00000e2511c8.html) > [@](#): > > The current account, now 5.7 per cent of GDP, and a budget deficit of 3.6 per cent of GDP have contributed to the dollar tumbling **20.8 per cent in trade-weighted terms since the start of Mr Bush’s tenure.** > On Thuirsday the dollar fell a further 0.3 per cent to $1.2866 against the euro and 0.6 per cent to an eight-year low of SFr1.1869 against the Swiss franc. The greenback **also hit a fresh 12-year low of C$1.2034 against the Canadian dollar** and slumped to Y105.71 against the yen before a partial fightback. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/56 "2004-11-04T18:05:44Z")
And then [there’s this,](http://news.ft.com/cms/s/63add62c-2e51-11d9-a86b-00000e2511c8.html) with this infinitely telling blurb: > [@](#): > > Traders said Mr Bush’s victory was likely to re-ignite fears about security of oil supplies in the Middle East… Like I said, we’re all going to pay for this. I guess that’s unity of a sort, eh? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/57 "2004-11-04T18:06:33Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > Further to the point: [Financial Times: Dollar slumps to nine-year lows](http://news.ft.com/cms/s/00474e04-2e53-11d9-a86b-00000e2511c8.html) More exports and prohibitive out-sourcing wages! ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/58 "2004-11-04T18:18:01Z")
[Not bloody likely.](http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=2y&s=USDEUR%3DX&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=usdinr%3Dx) The blue line is the euro, the red the Indian rupee. Might as well be fixed. And, of course, China’s is already fixed. Among the multiple incompetencies of this president is his complete inability to deal with this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/59 "2004-11-04T18:36:46Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Ah, but I have not been one of the “Can’t we all just get along?” types. I consider anybody who voted for Bush to be either an ignoramus or a person whose greed has blinded him to reality. I have little respect for the political beliefs and and understand of reality of slightly more than half of all American voters. They will get my respect when they have earned it but for now they are wallowing in their ignorance.Yet many voters have been quoted as making precisely that simplification. "I am pro-life and Bush is pro-life so I voted for Bush."Not depressed. Just aware of a gulf between what is and what should be. I swear by all that is good and holy … are you LISTENING to yourself? Boiled down, this is what you (and others in your camp) are saying: “More than half the voters disagreed with me. So I’m going to call them ignorant for four years and hope that changes their mind in 2008.” Sheesh. Do you have any people skills in real life, or are you this stupid there as well? Bush got more votes than Kerry … both in the popular arena and in the electoral arena. There is a way to change this in 2008, but I can guarantee you insulting those who voted for him this time isn’t the way to do it. The Democrats lost THIS BATTLE, not the continuing war for power and influence in America. However, if the party isn’t careful, it will lose even more ground with the majority of voting Americans through rhetoric and actions similar to what you’re demonstrating here. Stop and think a minute. You don’t change opinions through insults and arguments. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/60 "2004-11-04T18:39:30Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > Stop and think a minute. You don’t change opinions through insults and arguments. No you do it by sending a free 3oz shampoo sample to everyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=4)