# What did we learn yesterday, or WTF. didn't people take civics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821 "2004-11-03T19:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/61 "2004-11-04T18:58:53Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > No you do it by sending a free 3oz shampoo sample to everyone. And booze. Shampoo for some, little bottles of Drambuie for others. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/62 "2004-11-04T19:08:16Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > House-Senate-Oval Office, GRAND SLAM!!! > LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER LOSER šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ -!- šŸ˜ƒ > okay im done now [tee hee] > ~ Real nice, coming from someone who canā€™t even vote. What are you? 12? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/63 "2004-11-04T19:17:37Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > I swear by all that is good and holy ā€¦ are you LISTENING to yourself?..Stop and think a minute. You donā€™t change opinions through insults and arguments. Have I tried to change their opinions? I donā€™t care what their opinions are. What is important is that they realize that their opinions are not based in reality. Dude, Iā€™m not the ignoramus. Iā€™m just some schlub posting on a message board engaging in a little ā€œtough love,ā€ hitting them with a 2x4 to get their attention so they realize they are chin deep in honey pit but can pull themselves up out of it. Later I will happily and without insult help them learn the truth and maybe someday they and I can have a beer and laugh at what morons they were back in Ought-Four. For now, though, they are not seeing it. I thought conservatives were into this old-fashioned style of teaching and were against making people feel good about themselves by not telling them they are wrong. šŸ˜‰ > [@](#): > > Sheesh. Do you have any people skills in real life, or are you this stupid there as well? I am a draftsman. By the standards of the profession Iā€™m friendly, gracious, outgoing, openminded, and deeply accepting and understanding. :eek: Thereā€™s a reason most of us arenā€™t allowed to talk to customers. ā€œYou want WHAT?!?!?! What sort of pointy-headed moron ARE you? Have you been talking to your salesman again? How dumb are you to not know heā€™s a lying idiot?ā€ šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/64 "2004-11-04T19:24:18Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Have I tried to change their opinions? I donā€™t care what their opinions are. What is important is that they realize that their opinions are not based in reality. Dude, Iā€™m not the ignoramus. Iā€™m just some schlub posting on a message board engaging in a little ā€œtough love,ā€ hitting them with a 2x4 to get their attention so they realize they are chin deep in honey pit but can pull themselves up out of it. Later I will happily and without insult help them learn the truth and maybe someday they and I can have a beer and laugh at what morons they were back in Ought-Four. For now, though, they are not seeing it. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/65 "2004-11-04T19:27:05Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Have I tried to change their opinions? I donā€™t care what their opinions are. What is important is that they realize that their opinions are not based in reality. Dude, Iā€™m not the ignoramus. Iā€™m just some schlub posting on a message board engaging in a little ā€œtough love,ā€ hitting them with a 2x4 to get their attention so they realize they are chin deep in honey pit but can pull themselves up out of it. Later I will happily and without insult help them learn the truth and maybe someday they and I can have a beer and laugh at what morons they were back in Ought-Four. For now, though, they are not seeing it. Dude, thatā€™s not the way to persuade people to see things your way. We need to become evangelists and sell people on the virtues of freedom and responsibility. Every other Dem on this board wants to club the Pubs with their beliefs (or an actual club) and make them agree that the Dems are right. But we ought to be concerned with _winning elections_, not with with bullying the Pubs into acknowledging we are right. That is the path of ego, and it has failed. Instead of telling people that we are correct, letā€™s use persuasion and reason to get our views to the electorate so that _they_ will tell _us_ we are right. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/66 "2004-11-04T19:30:31Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Instead of telling people that we are correct, letā€™s use persuasion and reason to get our views to the electorate so that _they_ will tell _us_ we are right. Sorry to break it to you, but thatā€™s never going to work. The sooner this reality is accepted, the better. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/67 "2004-11-04T19:32:34Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Sorry to break it to you, but thatā€™s never going to work. The sooner this reality is accepted, the better. Bullshit, the Pubs just managed to do it. You can keep on whining about the big, bad, Pubs and keep alienating potential voters, but Iā€™m going to hold on to the principles or freedom that our nation was founded on and win. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/68 "2004-11-04T19:45:20Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Bullshit, the Pubs just managed to do it. You can keep on whining about the big, bad, Pubs and keep alienating potential voters, but Iā€™m going to hold on to the principles or freedom that our nation was founded on and win. That and a quarter will get you a bag of chips. Look **Gobear** , youā€™re a great guy and one of my favorite posters, so I donā€™t want to argue with you. Iā€™m glad weā€™re on the same side. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/69 "2004-11-04T20:17:30Z")
**gobear** is on the side of the angels in this debate ā€¦ as much as angels can get involved in politics, anyway. If you want to persist in handwringing and crying ā€œwoe is meā€ and in general being a nattering nabob of negativism, go right ahead. You will then allow the Republicans to continue to marginalize you and your message, whatever it may be. You can run around and scream ā€œThe sky is fallingā€ because Bush won, but in so doing you run the risk of the sky NOT falling. Then, in 2008, if the sky is still aloft, Republicans will continue to poke fun at the Liberal Left, and how they always overreact to everything, and arenā€™t they cute like that? And the rest of the country, who truly doesnā€™t have much of a dog in many of the political issues/fights, will think ā€œWow, they _are_ being childishā€ and will continue to vote Republican. OR ā€¦ you can point out the benefits your partyā€™s/candidateā€™s platform has for the electorate, much as **gobear** has done. You can show middle America that YOURS is the party/candidate/idea/platform that benefits the American people. Itā€™s your choice. I gotta tell you, though, based on this electionā€™s results, I donā€™t think the first option works very well. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/70 "2004-11-04T20:21:12Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > nattering nabob of negativism Spiro? I heard you were dead. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/71 "2004-11-04T20:22:43Z")
You know whatā€™s embarassing? I agree totally with all of you. But itā€™s nice to be able to spout off here so I donā€™t IRL. Iā€™ll be able now to slap on my patented phony smile and pretend to be a good loser instead of letting the defeat eat at me in public. I say stupid things here so I donā€™t say them to my boss. Yesterday I gave some of the depressives here shit for being so sad when it is really just a sport, which I believe. Some think that means I donā€™t take politics seriously. Nope, itā€™s as serious as a heart attack and today I gave the Bush voters shit because I know they are wrong. Does that mean I donā€™t want my side to win next time? No way! Every fiber of my being wants to slap that smug smirk off our Chimp in Chief and that is best done by retaking the House and Senate. So does that mean I wonā€™t blow it for my side by saying something stupid? Of course not! I have the personality of a Bears fan talking to Packers fans and am guaranteed to say something stupid. Iā€™ll just try to say it here. But Sauron, ā€œnattering nabobs of negativism?ā€ Iā€™m trying to digest my lunch. Donā€™t go quoting Agnew. Back to the OP, yes, those people all took Civics just like they all took Geography. The unfortunate part is that they remember both about as well. They donā€™t remember how the Electoral College works? If itā€™s any comfort they donā€™t remember the primary exports of Bolivia, either. ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/72 "2004-11-04T20:28:51Z")
Has anyone here seen **1776**? Thereā€™s a scene toward the end where Jeffersonā€™s stubborn refusal to excise the anti-slavery clause in the Declaration of Independence causes the entire South to walk out of Congress, dooming the chances of independence from Britain. John Adams tries to rouse the Northern delegates to action, but they all leave in despair. Alone on stage, Adams breaks out into a song, ā€œIs Anybody There?ā€ > [@](#): > > The croakers all say > Weā€™ll rue the day, > Thereā€™ll be hell to pay in > Fiery Purgatory! > > Through all the gloom, > Through all the gloom, I can > See the rays of ravishing light and > Glory! > > Is anybody there?! > Does anybody care?! > Does anybody see > What I see?! Thatā€™s about how I feel right nowā€“yes, the election sucked, but thatā€™s no excuse to give up. Instead of bitching and moaning, letā€™s pick ourselves up and plan for victory in 2006. It _can_ be done because we have the better arguments to present to the voters. ---
**Author:** ![OleOneEye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f14d63/32.png) [@OleOneEye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OleOneEye)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/73 "2004-11-04T20:55:17Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > If itā€™s any comfort they donā€™t remember the primary exports of Bolivia, either. ā˜¹ Um, cocaine and ā€¦ cocaine? šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/74 "2004-11-04T21:05:01Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > Thereā€™s always [this possibility.](http://www.polarismine.com/newcanada.gif) I think this [map](http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg) is more apropos ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/75 "2004-11-04T21:09:12Z")
More accurate geographically, but it should say _White_ Jesusland. The black church doesnā€™t belong in there. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/76 "2004-11-04T21:36:53Z")
> [@OleOneEye](#): > > Um, cocaine and ā€¦ cocaine? šŸ˜› Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a straight lineā€¦ **gobear** , Iā€™m married to one of them One-D Adams. None of them were ever that positive/sunny/glurgy, except my SIL, whom I wish to slap. The real John Adams wouldā€™ve sued the librettist. ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/77 "2004-11-04T22:05:00Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > Hey, sorryā€“some of us _like_ to own guns, _like_ the idea of killing terrorists on their own doorstepsā€¦ So take your guns and hunt some terrorists. I hear private security is a booming industry in Iraq. Look, there is no terrorist ā€œdoorstep.ā€ The fight canā€™t be waged at some point on ā€œterrorist territoryā€ - there is no such thing, because terrorists are not confined to any precise area on Earth. No, the terrorists come to _us_, like how yellow jackets will come to a cook-out. One suggestion to keep the yellow jackets away is to leave a piece of meat far away from yourself so they can go there instead. This sounds a lot like what youā€™re advocating. Sure, you can try to find terrorist strongholds and take them out - but these are hard to find, and terrorists fade into the populace very, very easy. The net result, then, is we have our soldiers out there so that they can be attacked. _Then_ they can respond and kill some terrorists. Problem is, it was probably a suicide bombing or an IED in the first place - no one there to kill. Our military is not so expendable. Do you realize any of this? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/78 "2004-11-04T22:07:29Z")
> [@gfloyd](#): > > People fought and died to give us what we have. Refusing to vote is refusing a gift bought and paid for by others blood, sweat and tears. What are you referring to here, exactly? I donā€™t mean to be snarky, just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/79 "2004-11-05T02:27:38Z")
Well, obviously not voting based on ignorant ideas of the pocess is umm, ignorant. But that doesnā€™t mean choosing not to vote is always ignorant. Personally I vote if there is a party whose numbers I want to boost. If noone on the ballot is worthy I choose to boost the apathy/no-show list. I would act differently if there was a ā€œnone of the aboveā€ slot, but there isnā€™t. I do not think of walking down to the voting booth as my fare for commenting on the society I live in. If you want to ignore me because I didnā€™t vote in the most recent election, well screw you robot. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821/80 "2004-11-05T03:42:49Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Also Keep in mind that everyone that argued SH had no WMD (IIRCS France and Germany were in that group) WAS CORRECT. Nor France nor AFAIK Germany argued that Irak didnā€™t have WMD. They argued that evidences were lacking and that inspections should be conducted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-did-we-learn-yesterday-or-wtf-didnt-people-take-civics/272821.md?page=5)