# What distinguishes a pogrom from a race riot? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460 "2024-11-19T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/181 "2024-11-21T22:05:05Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > You’ve been out-argued by Banquet Bear and MrDibble. They provided abundant cites to back up their arguments. You’ve provided nothing but definitions and quibbling about sources. Your argument is very thin and lacks substance. It’s like you’re covering your eyes to avoid seeing the horrors that BB and MD have abundantly documented here. Wow…so definitions are meaningless but what people want to think and finding someone in the whole world who agrees with you is the important thing. Very Trumpy of you. ETA: Two can play this game: - [Israel must stop ‘ethnic cleansing’ in Gaza, Jordan tells US | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/25/israel-jordan-foreign-minister-ayman-safadi-stop-ethnic-cleansing-gaza) - [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/25/israel-ethnic-cleansing-gaza-settlements/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/10/25/israel-ethnic-cleansing-gaza-settlements/) - [Is Israel committing ‘ethnic cleansing’ in Gaza? | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/13/is-israel-committing-ethnic-cleansing-in-gaza) - [https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20241114-israel-committing-ethnic-cleansing-amid-mass-forced-displacements-gaza-hrw-report-says](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20241114-israel-committing-ethnic-cleansing-amid-mass-forced-displacements-gaza-hrw-report-says) - [What satellite images tell us about North Gaza as report accuses Israel of 'ethnic cleansing' | World News | Sky News](https://news.sky.com/story/what-satellite-images-tell-us-about-north-gaza-as-report-accuses-israel-of-ethnic-cleansing-13253674) - [Israelis Must Oppose Ethnic Cleansing in the Gaza Strip - Opinion - Haaretz.com](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-11-19/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israelis-must-oppose-ethnic-cleansing-in-the-gaza-strip/00000193-4593-d58a-abdf-cdd7d2780000) I can get more if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/182 "2024-11-21T22:11:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …who are you talking to? everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/183 "2024-11-21T22:11:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > so definitions are meaningless …nobody thinks definitions are meaningless. They are important. And relevant. And absolutely key to understanding what genocide is. Which is why all of the people I chose to cite _used the definitions you cited_ as a framework to argue that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide. You used those very same definitions to argue that it _isn’t_ a genocide. The difference here is that you aren’t an expert in international humanitarian law, you aren’t a lawyer arguing a case at the International Court of Justice, you aren’t a historian who has dedicated their life to studying the holocaust and genocide. I’ll say it again: your cites are perfectly fine. They just _don’t support your argument_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/184 "2024-11-21T22:18:09Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > everyone. …well nobody here is doing that. I don’t think that anyone in this thread has called for _revenge_. And my position is the same as it was six months ago. That what Hamas did on October the 7th was an atrocity. Israel had a right to defend itself. But the way they decided to wage this war is not “self-defence.” It crossed the line early into the campaign into multiple war crimes, and has since evolved into a _full-blown genocide_. So I don’t think you are talking about me. And I can’t think of anyone here who you could be talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/185 "2024-11-21T22:19:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can get more if you want. …a list of cites that don’t disagree with my position isn’t the win that you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/186 "2024-11-21T22:21:41Z")
This may sound odd coming from someone who started a thread to distinguish between a pogrom and a race riot, but i feel like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” overlap a lot, and I’m not super interested in distinguishing those two entities. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/187 "2024-11-21T22:29:15Z")
…I’ve argued that both are going on here. But there is no treaty or convention that covers ethnic cleansing. It’s considered “a crime of humanity” under international law, which is one of the things Netanyahu, Gallant and Deif have been charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/188 "2024-11-21T22:41:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This may sound odd coming from someone who started a thread to distinguish between a pogrom and a race riot, but i feel like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” overlap a lot, and I’m not super interested in distinguishing those two entities. Yeah. Contrary to all the talk about “cheapening” terms like genocide I think the opposite is the problem; people trying to rules-lawyer their way into _denying_ that something is genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/189 "2024-11-21T23:37:16Z")
I’m not talking about you, but the combatants and their defenders. I certainly agree it is genocide, for what that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/190 "2024-11-21T23:49:25Z")
…ah, okay 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2024, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/191 "2024-11-22T00:19:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Almost definitionally obtuse. > > Clearly being efficient is not the hallmark of genocide. Efficiency does denote effort though towards a goal. The person/entity is trying to get better at it. Yes, clearly. I mean they managed genocide in places like Armenia, Cambodia and Rwanda without either boxcars or building several large facilities dedicated to the wholesale murder of people literally shipped in by the trainload. Arguing that indeed is definitionally obtuse. But here’s the thing: **you’re the one making that argument** with your gold standard of the Nazis for genocide and the box-car theory: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Let’s assume (sake of argument) that the Nazis were the gold standard when it came to genocide. > > They built several large facilities dedicated to the wholesale murder of people who were literally shipped in by the trainload and whose only distinguishing feature was they were Jewish. There was little distinction of age or gender. Everyone got killed eventually (with some kept alive to work for some time before being killed). > > Is Israel trying any of that? And just to remind you, I am still curious about your feelings on the second largest group of victims of the Holocaust, the 3.3 million Soviet POWs murdered by deliberate neglect and starvation. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/192 "2024-12-19T06:13:51Z")
Mass Movement ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2024, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/193 "2024-12-19T08:10:59Z")
Sorry, what the fuck now? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/194 "2024-12-20T16:04:29Z")
Not gonna read this whole thread, which has clearly gone predictably off the rails, but I don’t see why “pogrom” shouldn’t be restricted specifically to “anti-Semitic mob attacks perpetrated in the Russian Empire”. Those were frequent enough and historically significant enough to deserve their own word, and obviously there are lots of other words available to describe other horrors. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/195 "2024-12-20T16:37:11Z")
Colon Blow has a separate discussion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/196 "2024-12-20T16:52:00Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I don’t see why “pogrom” shouldn’t be restricted specifically to “anti-Semitic mob attacks perpetrated in the Russian Empire”. That ship sailed in the 1800s, when it was already being applied to non-Russian Empire attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/197 "2024-12-20T16:55:34Z")
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