# What distinguishes a pogrom from a race riot? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460 "2024-11-19T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/41 "2024-11-20T22:19:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do, actually: You just repeating yourself without addressing the objections raised to your argument is not particularly compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/42 "2024-11-20T22:19:35Z")
Pot meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/43 "2024-11-20T22:21:08Z")
A pogrom and ethnic cleansing seem almost the same thing. I am hard pressed to find what distinguishes one from another. Pogroms seemed to focus on Jews but I am not sure the word can only be applied to Jews. Maybe a pogrom, as mentioned above, is more a spontaneous things and not directed by the government. Still not sure though. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/44 "2024-11-20T22:21:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think my citations beat yours. > > - I’ve got the UN treaty that most governments have signed defining this. Literally the law that defines this internationally. > - I’ve got PBS. > - I’ve got Oxford. > - I’ve got the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. …you do realize that all of my cites use the Genocide Convention to make their case, right? I mean, just how _stupid_ are you? You’ve provided the definition. My cites show how what is happening in Gaza _fit the definition_. This isn’t difficult at all. Your cites _support_ mine. What you are arguing is your _interpretation_ of the Genocide Convention. And that is backed by _absolutely nothing at all_. You aren’t an expert in international humanitarian law. You aren’t even looking at the evidence. Your citations don’t “beat mine.” They _support_ mine. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You’ve got what? Some fringe publications few have ever heard of? What is this bullshit? The United Nations? The International Court of Justice? Maryam Jamshidi, Associate Professor of Law at University of Colorado Law School? The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights? Raz Segal, Israeli historian, Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies? Are you calling these people and organisations _fringe_? Because the publications certainly _are not_. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nah…I prefer my cites vs. yours. You need to do better (but you can’t). What a fucking joke. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/45 "2024-11-20T22:22:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I mean, just how _stupid_ are you? Smarter than you which is all that matters for this. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What is this bullshit? > > The United Nations? What is the current UN treaty on genocide? Not some rando bloviating. The fucking LAW all (or most anyway) countries agree to? I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/46 "2024-11-20T22:26:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is the current UN treaty on genocide? Where is the UN trial that demonstrated Israel’s intent in Gaza? If there hasn’t been a trial, you can’t point at the requirements for conviction as evidence that they aren’t committing genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/47 "2024-11-20T22:27:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where is the UN trial that demonstrated Israel’s intent in Gaza? If there hasn’t been a trial, you can’t point at the requirements for conviction as evidence that they aren’t committing genocide. You keep saying that but the answer is you are innocent until proven guilty. ETA: More to the point, the requirements to be guilty of genocide has been posted here and Israel is not doing that. At least, no one has provided any evidence of it. Ethnic cleansing? Sure. Clearly so, without a doubt. And that is plenty bad on its own. But it’s not genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/48 "2024-11-20T22:42:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You keep saying that but the answer is you are innocent until proven guilty. …_in the eyes of the law_. The _government_ must treat you as innocent until it proves your guilt, which means (in theory, at least) it can’t lock you up or confiscate your property without trial. It has absolutely nothing to do with what’s going on in this thread, which consists of private citizens rendering their own opinions on the morality and legality of Israel’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/49 "2024-11-20T22:43:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Smarter than you which is all that matters for this. …I’m glad I quoted this before you deleted. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is the current UN treaty on genocide? You can see it being addressed here. > **[192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf](https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)** If you are confused by the link, its a direct link to the South African submission to the International Court of Justice, arguing the case for genocide by Isreal in Gaza. It addresses the UN convention step by step. From the introduction: (apologies for the wonky copy-and-paste formatting) > [@submission](#): > > y. The acts and omissions by Israel complained of by South Africa > are genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part > of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group, that being the part of the Palestinian group in the > Gaza Strip (‘Palestinians in Gaza’). The acts in question include killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing > them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about > their physical destruction. The acts are all attributable to Israel, which has failed to prevent genocide > and is committing genocide in manifest violation of the Genocide Convention, and which has also > violated and is continuing to violate its other fundamental obligations under the Genocide Convention, > including by failing to prevent or punish the direct and public incitement to genocide by senior Israeli > officials and others. There is 84 pages of evidence that was submitted to support the case for genocide. It addresses every element of the convention and provides evidence to support their contention. Israel were given the opportunity to respond. You can look up their response yourself. This was followed by two days of testimony, and the case is ongoing. The process to legally define this as a genocide is long and will take _years_. So if you are waiting for the definitive legal take, we won’t get that for a very long time. And by then, _it will be too late_. The reason why South Africa took the case was because they believed Israel were committing a genocide. The Court ordered a set of measures that Israel were _required_ to undertake to prevent a genocide. Israel _ignored_ those measures. But the Straightdope isn’t a courtroom. And I’m as entitled as anyone else to look at the evidence, to look at what historians and experts in genocide have to say, people that “aren’t on the fringe”, and the consensus here is pretty clear. You aren’t arguing _why_ the evidence doesn’t fit the convention. You are just _denying_ the evidence actually exists. I used to wonder how people could live right next to concentration camps, yet remain blissfully unaware of what was happening there. But that’s the reality of the world we are living in right now. It’s not that they didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/50 "2024-11-20T22:45:12Z")
Let’s try it another way. Let’s assume (sake of argument) that the Nazis were the gold standard when it came to genocide. They built several large facilities dedicated to the wholesale murder of people who were literally shipped in by the trainload and whose only distinguishing feature was they were Jewish. There was little distinction of age or gender. Everyone got killed eventually (with some kept alive to work for some time before being killed). Is Israel trying any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/51 "2024-11-20T22:47:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > : More to the point, the requirements to be guilty of genocide has been posted here and Israel is not doing that. …yeah, they are. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > At least, no one has provided any evidence of it. This is a lie. There is no way that you’ve even _clicked_ on any of the links I provided. Not in the time that you’ve had in between responses. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Let’s assume (sake of argument) that the Nazis were the gold standard when it came to genocide. The standard is the _Convention_. The very convention you _cited_. It doesn’t have to reach any “gold standard.” > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is Israel trying any of that? This isn’t a _requirement_ of the convention. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/52 "2024-11-20T22:47:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is Israel trying any of that? And we’re back to “Are boxcars required for it to be a genocide?” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/53 "2024-11-20T22:47:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is no way that you’ve even _clicked_ on any of the links I provided. Not in the time that you’ve had in between responses. I am not going to reply to your Gish Gallop. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/54 "2024-11-20T22:48:54Z")
Or you can answer… Is Israel building murder centers to kill any Palestinian they can get their hand on? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/55 "2024-11-20T22:51:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am not going to reply to your Gish Gallop. …you asked for evidence. I provided evidence. I even neatly summarised those cites for you, provided the authors and more context. I’m happy to distil the evidence down further in any way that makes it easier for you to digest. What would you suggest? I think this is important. How do you want me to present the evidence for genocide in a way that you won’t dismiss as a fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/56 "2024-11-20T22:51:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is Israel building murder centers to kill any Palestinian they can get their hand on? …where does it say this in the Convention? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/57 "2024-11-20T22:54:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Or you can answer… That _was_ an answer. A lot of the Holocaust was carried out by Eiensatz groups in the field, who didn’t use big complicated facilities - they’d just walk into a village, round every one up, and shoot them. Was that not part of the genocide, because they didn’t put everyone in “murder centers” first? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/58 "2024-11-20T22:54:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …where does it say this in the Convention? Right here. Post #21: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > **To qualify as genocide, the actions must be done with intent to eliminate an entire group of people.** It turns out that is not an easy thing to do but they sure tried. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/59 "2024-11-20T22:55:35Z")
And _that_ brings us back to: > [@Miller](#): > > That is, I believe, the standard necessary to convict. Since Israel hasn’t been tried for genocide, you can’t point at the UN definition and say it rules out what Israel is doing as “genocide,” because the question of Israel’s intent has not been legally determined yet. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/60 "2024-11-20T22:57:20Z")
And I would say I see no such intent from Israel and no one has shown that either. I do believe Israel wants to clear out Gaza. That is ethnic cleansing. Also not a nice thing but also not genocide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=4)