# What distinguishes a pogrom from a race riot? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460 "2024-11-19T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/81 "2024-11-21T03:31:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The United Nations. Some guy giving a speech. Lots do and many have nifty titles. So what? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Maryam Jamshidi, Associate Professor of Law at University of Colorado Law School. Means nothing. Anyone can come up with a professor who says what they want. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Not bad. Did it come to law? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Raz Segal, Israeli historian Another professor. We can find thousands of these people on both sides. Do you want to make this thread about who has more cites? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You didn’t read jack shit. Neither did you. I cited: > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The [Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.](https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume%2078/volume-78-i-1021-english.pdf) That’s the actual international law on the topic. Not your feels. A peer reviewed paper from Oxford University: > [https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/40215/chapter-abstract/344567514?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false](https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/40215/chapter-abstract/344567514?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false) An article from the US Holocaust Museum (you’d think they have a good take on this): > [Definitions: Types of Mass Atrocities - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/definitions) So yeah…your cites suck. You found some people who agree with you. Not hard to do these days. More, you never actually debated the point. You just spammed shitty links. I’m not impressed. Certainly not convinced. And even after I tried to de-escalate things and chill you just kept diving in and tried to be more and more offensive to get a rise out of me. I guess that worked for you at least. I’m done with you on this. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/82 "2024-11-21T04:04:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Some guy giving a speech. Lots do. So what? …it wasn’t just a speech. It was the preamble to the UN Special Committee’s report into genocide in Gaza, that I _also_ linked to. Again: here’s that link: > **[n2427119.pdf](https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n24/271/19/pdf/n2427119.pdf)** > > 493.80 KB > [@the report](#): > > The report raises serious concerns of breaches of international humanitarian and > human rights laws in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including starvation as a > weapon of war, the possibility of genocide in Gaza and an apartheid system in the > West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It documents the impact of the conflict > escalation since 7 October 2023 on Palestinians’ rights to food; to a clean, healthy > and sustainable environment; to physical integrity, liberty and security of persons; as > well as the disproportionate effects on the rights of women, children, and future > generations more broadly. The report also highlights the ongoing attacks against the > United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East > (UNRWA) and refers to developments in the occupied Syrian Golan. The report > provides recommendations to the General Assembly and Member States; to the State > of Israel; and to businesses operating with Israel, that in any way contribute to > maintaining Israel’s unlawful presence in the occupied territories. Much more at the link. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Means nothing. Anyone can come up with a professor who says what they want. Are you calling them an asshat? Was the article hyperbole and did they write it to be edgy and get a click?" > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not bad. Did it come to law? What kind of question is that? Can anyone help me out here? What does “did it come to law” mean here, in the context of that particular cite? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Another professor. We can find thousands of these people on both sides. Do you want to make this thread about who has more cites? I don’t think that there are thousands of Associate Professors of Holocaust and Genocide Studies out there, but if there were, I’m confident that the overwhelming majority would support Raz Segal’s assertion. Because what Segal did was _make a case_. Something that _you_ haven’t done. If there are scholars in Holocaust and Genocide out there that argue this _isn’t_ a genocide, feel free to share them. But here’s the thing: the only definitive ruling we will get on this is going to be years away. (That’s IF the court remains in existence, because the way the world is going, it wouldn’t surprise me if we see a full-throated attack on IHL.) So all we are ever going to get is opinions. And hold on a minute: why did you skip The International Court of Justice, and the submission by South Africa in their case on genocide? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Neither did you. Of course I fucking have. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That’s the actual international law on the topic. Not your feels. Which is the basis of every single person and organisation that argues that this is a genocide. Every. Single. One. What exactly do you think posting that again says? It doesn’t support your argument. It supports mine. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > A peer reviewed paper from Oxford University: Written in fucking 2012. It has no relevance to this conflict. My argument is that both genocide AND ethnic cleansing is happening. So again: your cite _supports_ mine. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > An article from the US Holocaust Museum (you’d think they have a good take on this): They don’t actually have a “take on this.” It’s a list of definitions. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So yeah…your cites suck. One simple question: how do these cites support the contention that what Israel is doing to Gaza is not genocide? None of them talk about what is happening right now in Gaza _at all._ > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You found some people who agree with you. Not hard to do these days. These either experts in this field, lawyers that compiled the case for genocide at the International Court of Justice, and the people on the Special Committee reporting directly to Secretary-General of the United Nations. All of my cites dealt directly with the evidence, and used the genocide convention as a framework to make the case for genocide. This “isn’t some people that agree with me.” Laughably, you can’t even find anyone to agree with you. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > More, you never actually debated the point. I’m not a lawyer and I don’t play one on TV. Instead, I’ve cited lawyers and historians that specialise in this field who have made the case for genocide. Unlike you, I don’t think you should just take my word for it. I haven’t “spammed shitty links.” You just didn’t read them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/83 "2024-11-21T04:41:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If soldiers see a three-year-old in the street they’ll shoot the kid They’ve [literally done that.](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/103829) That’s leaving aside their indiscriminate bombing of locations where they know kids are residing. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That’s genocide. Is Israel doing that? Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/84 "2024-11-21T04:48:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > the answer is you are innocent until proven guilty. So, OJ Simson, an innocent man… ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/85 "2024-11-21T05:25:16Z")
The Israeli response to Hamas is such a genocide that when they realized the made-up “30,000 civilian casulaties” number would have made it the _least_ deadly bombing campaign in history in terms of civilian to target death ratio, they started looking for reasons to multiply the number by a factor of 4 or 5 that amounted to “vibes.” Just ask the U.N., a completely reliable organization that is definitely not a branch of Hamas, whose members just happened to actively participate in rape and murder on October 7 and are still holding Israeli hostages in their homes. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/86 "2024-11-21T05:27:40Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > Just ask the U.N., a completely reliable organization that is definitely not a branch of Hamas, whose members just happened to actively participate in rape and murder on October 7 and are still holding Israeli hostages in their homes. The U.N. is a branch of Hamas??? ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/87 "2024-11-21T05:30:22Z")
In answer to the question, a race riot or a pogrom is something the Bad People do. Russians from 100 years ago are allowed to be Bad People (but are not Bad People anymore, especially when they rape toddlers in Ukraine in an anti-imperialist fashion). Arab Muslims are never allowed to be Bad People therefore nothing they do to Jews can be a pogrom or a race riot and you’re racist for thinking so. A genocide is when Israel does something. It’s definitely not when China puts over a million Uyghurs in concentration camps, or when Russia kills 20,000 Ukrainians in a campaign that they openly state is designed to eliminate the Ukrainian culture and language while absorbing Ukraine into Russia. The fact that Israel clearly does not have the means or goal to kill all the Arabs in the world or even make any appreciable dent in their population does not change the fact that Israel Doing Something is a genocide. If you just redefine the minute proportion of Arabs that Israel is at war with as something different called a “Palestinian,” then the numbers balance, especially when you get to make up the numbers anyway. Every Palestinian is a journalist, and a doctor, and four years old, and a civilian, and not a single person killed in Gaza in the past 14 months was a valid target, and “resistance” (chopping off the head of a woman with a garden tool while you gang-rape her) is always valid anyway so Israel isn’t really responding to any act of war and just decided to bomb these people for no reason. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/88 "2024-11-21T05:31:23Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The U.N. is a branch of Hamas??? The U.N. is a branch of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/89 "2024-11-21T05:45:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They’ve [literally done that.](https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/103829) Check your source. It is literally a Palestinian news source. Maybe they are 100% correct but we have to consider the source as unreliable. > **[Wafa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa)** > > Wafa (Arabic: وفا, lit. 'trust', an acronym of Arabic: وكالة الأنباء الفلسطينية Wikalat al-Anba al-Filastiniya, lit. 'Palestinian News Agency'), also referred to in English as the Palestine News Agency and the Palestinian News & Info Agency, is the official state-run news agency of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Before the formation of the PNA in 1994, Wafa was the official news agency of the Palestine Liberation Organization. > Wafa, like the PNA's other media outlets, are considered t... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/90 "2024-11-21T05:53:53Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > The U.N. is a branch of Hamas. I think that will come as a surprise to a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/91 "2024-11-21T06:33:25Z")
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. My understanding has always been that pogroms tend to be more organized and involve government support. Though the Chicago Race Riot involved white officers who refused to stop the violence of the white attackers, I’d be hesitant to call it a pogrom. I see that some events that used to be called race riots, like the one in Tulsa in 1921, are now being called massacres, which seems to me to be a more accurate term. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/92 "2024-11-21T06:40:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is literally a Palestinian news source. …kinda racist, don’t ya think? Here you go. The New York Times. You could have simply verified it yourself if you wanted to. > **[In 5th Day Of Gaza Raid, A Girl, 3, Is Shot Dead (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/world/in-5th-day-of-gaza-raid-a-girl-3-is-shot-dead.html)** > > Palestinian officials say Israeli soldiers killed three-year-old girl during raid on Rafah refugee camp in Gaza; raid, in fifth day, is in response to killing of Israeli soldiers in Gaza; is designed to cut off arms smuggled through tunnels from... The Washington Post, for good measure. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/05/23/girl-3-slain-amid-gazas-ruins/0145d5bb-9b26-4953-9207-38507bcc5ff7/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/05/23/girl-3-slain-amid-gazas-ruins/0145d5bb-9b26-4953-9207-38507bcc5ff7/) Since apparently only white western news sources are credible. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/93 "2024-11-21T06:47:19Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > The Israeli response to Hamas is such a genocide that when they realized the made-up “30,000 civilian casulaties” number …it isn’t “made up.” > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > would have made it the _least_ deadly bombing campaign in history in terms of civilian to target death ratio The alleged “civilian to target death ratio” that Israel uses IS the actual made up number. Its based on nothing really. Just guesses, not even educated ones. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > Just ask the U.N., a completely reliable organization that is definitely not a branch of Hamas This is true. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > whose members just happened to actively participate in rape and murder on October 7 and are still holding Israeli hostages in their homes. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/94 "2024-11-21T06:53:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Check your source. I did. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is literally a Palestinian news source. Yes, and…? I see no reason to doubt this report since it gels with multiple others. It’s a horse, not a zebra. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > we have to consider the source as unreliable. Would you like any one of _numerous_ other reports on young kids being killed by IOF sniper fire? From a spectrum of different sources? Before I spend any effort, can you tell me who you would find reliable? Al Jazeera I assume is out. Guardian probably too leftist for you. Reuters? The BBC? The motherfucking [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-doctor-interviews.html) meet your standards? Are those fake X-Rays in their article? Or is it going to be more genocide denial instead? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/95 "2024-11-21T06:57:42Z")
Do you think Israeli snipers are targeting and shooting toddlers on purpose? Do you think Israeli commanders are telling their soldiers to shoot little kids? Do you think Israeli soldiers are likely to follow such orders? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/96 "2024-11-21T07:05:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > My understanding has always been that pogroms tend to be more organized and involve government support. Not the original Russian ones. At least, not outright material support. More tacit approval. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/97 "2024-11-21T07:15:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Are you saying Israeli snipers are targeting and shooting toddlers on purpose? Yes. What, you think they’re mistaking Gazan toddlers for the infamous Hamas Dwarf Brigades? We’re talking about _sniping_ here, not running gun battles (although those kill plenty of kids too) > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you think Israeli commanders are telling their soldiers to shoot little kids? In so many words? No, I doubt they feel they need to. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you think Israeli soldiers are likely to follow such orders? I think the average IOF soldier doesn’t _need_ such orders. These are the same IOF soldiers who will gleefully record and publically post video of themselves committing war crimes. Who torture and rape defenceless POWs. Do I think that kind of scum would balk at sniping kids? No, I do not. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/98 "2024-11-21T07:20:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do I think that kind of scum would balk at sniping kids? No, I do not. Your hatred for Jews is alarming. Really alarming that you’d think Joe Israeli Soldier is keen on shooting a child. You are at least as bad as those you want to condemn. Your viewpoint is vile and evil. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/99 "2024-11-21T07:25:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Your hatred for Jews is alarming. Funny, I don’t see the word “Jew” in the quoted post… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/100 "2024-11-21T07:26:33Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Funny, I don’t see the word “Jew” in the quoted post… Who is shooting who? (It’s not a mystery.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=6)