# What distinguishes a pogrom from a race riot? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460 "2024-11-19T14:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/121 "2024-11-21T08:32:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My hate is for fascist murderers, not “Jews”. When you are [running through the streets](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-pogrom-in-amsterdam/1009913/170) of a European city hunting for “fascist murderers,” who of course can be identified by wearing yarmulkes, black hats, or the wrong soccer jersey, do you prefer to use clubs or knives to legitimately criticize their government policies? ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/122 "2024-11-21T08:34:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Some of the physicians said that the types and locations of the wounds, and accounts of Palestinians who brought children to the hospital, led them to believe the victims were directly targeted by Israeli troops. So in other words, they didn’t see who shot them or how, they simply claim to have seen wounds and magically known they were “directly targeted by Israeli troops.” Are these the same doctors who provided the lauhgably fake “CT scans” of rounds that managed to penetrate directly to the center of a patient’s brain and stop there without any damage to either the skull or the round? (Rhetorical question, I know they are from when Pallywood originally floated this story.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/123 "2024-11-21T08:40:09Z")
I prefer to use words, personally. Unlike the IOF butchers you all love so much. Do you Zionist chucklefucks think just because I point out that Maccabi fans started the shit in Amsterdam, that means I’m actually in favour of how they were responded to? Despite not a word of that from me? _You’re_ the unquestioning fans of fascist bully boys (when they’re on your side), not me. ESH. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/124 "2024-11-21T08:41:26Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > Are these the same doctors who provided the lauhgably fake “CT scans” …this is, of course, _lies_. The New York Times even published a rebuttal, quoted here for your reference: > [@](#): > > Times Opinion rigorously edited this guest essay before publication, verifying the accounts and imagery through supporting photographic and video evidence and file metadata. We also vetted the doctors and nurses’ credentials, including that they had traveled to and worked in Gaza as claimed. When questions arose about the veracity of images included in the essay, we did additional work to review our previous findings. We presented the scans to a new round of multiple, independent experts in gunshot wounds, radiology and pediatric trauma, who attested to the images’ credibility. In addition, we again examined the images’ digital metadata and compared the images to video footage of their corresponding CT scans as well as photographs of the wounds of the three young children. > > While our editors have photographs to corroborate the CT scan images, because of their graphic nature, we decided these photos — of children with gunshot wounds to the head or neck — were too horrific for publication. We made a similar decision for the additional 40-plus photographs and videos supplied by the doctors and nurses surveyed that depicted young children with similar gunshot wounds. > > We stand behind this essay and the research underpinning it. Any implication that its images are fabricated is simply false. > **[Response to Recent Criticisms on New York Times Opinion Essay | The New York...](https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/)** The important quote here is: “Any implication that its images are fabricated is simply false.” I don’t know where you are getting your talking points from, but they aren’t going to work on me. You better step up your game. ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/125 "2024-11-21T08:47:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you Zionist chucklefucks think just because I point out that Maccabi fans started the shit in Amsterdam, that means I’m actually in favour of how they were responded to? Despite not a word of that from me? You certainly were arguing in favor of the Jew Hunt quite enthusiastically, including by brazen lying about the circumstances of the pre-arranged targeting of Jews by Arab Muslims (e.g. calling it “Maccabi fans starting shit”). I guess you just don’t have the courage of your convictions - you clearly want to help _encourage_ racial violence against Jews, but you’re too scared to participate in it yourself despite claiming how righteous and justified it is. Another Internet tough guy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/126 "2024-11-21T08:47:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The New York Times even published a rebuttal They’re happily ignoring the retractions about the lies about the identity of the Amsterdam offenders, or the myths of beheaded babies - ignoring the post-lie fact checking is their standard _modus operandi_. ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/127 "2024-11-21T08:48:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The important quote here is: “Any implication that its images are fabricated is simply false.” Oh OK, if the people publishing the laughably false images assure us they “verified them” and they can’t possibly be false, I guess that’s case closed. Just like all the casualty numbers from Hamas spokesmen drawn out of the air become accurate if we pretend the “Gaza health ministry” is somehow distinct from Hamas or has any actual method of counting civilian casualites. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/128 "2024-11-21T08:51:06Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > You certainly were arguing in favor of the Jew Hunt quite enthusiastically Actual quotes or ~~it didn’t happen~~ Imma abuse the charge of Blood Libel too. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/129 "2024-11-21T09:07:44Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > I guess that’s case closed. …yep. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > Just like all the casualty numbers from Hamas spokesmen drawn out of the air More lies. You remember when you made a claim about it being “the _least_ deadly bombing campaign in history in terms of civilian to target death ratio?” Where do you think they got the numbers for that? That’s right, the IDF are _using_ the Hamas numbers. As are the US State Department and everybody else. Because everyone agrees that the numbers are broadly accurate, and most likely to be an undercount. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > “Gaza health ministry” is somehow distinct from Hamas Nobody is making this claim. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > or has any actual method of counting civilian casualites. As distinct from Israel, who we know are literally making it up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/130 "2024-11-21T09:13:06Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > You certainly were arguing in favor of the Jew Hunt quite enthusiastically, Naah. Nice try. What I did was cite the _facts_. Like eyewitness reports and videos of Maccabi fans starting shit. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > I guess you just don’t have the courage of your convictions I don’t see how my conviction of “don’t support fascist murderers” requires me to beat anyone up. You’re the side with the bloodlust, _chaver_. I’ll stick with just supporting BDS and lobbying my local pols, thanks. And since it’s my country that’s already leading the efforts at the ICJ, they don’t need more approval from me on that. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > you clearly want to help _encourage_ racial violence against Jews Yeah, that charge only sounds more and more desperate the more it gets repeated. But go ahead, Zionist chucklefucks, undermine your own history with the weaponization of anisemitism accusations. I’m sure that wolf will be real. Any day now. > [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > you’re too scared Oooh, big scary fascists. I quiver… You think chickenshit canal-diving soccer hooligans could be scarier to me than the armed Apartheid-era police and military? Been confronting fascists for all my life, fool. Scared? Not even a little. Meanwhile, you’re happy to let the IOF do the killing for you - and even the IOF prefers sniping, drones and bombs. That’s when they aren’t torturing and brutalizing naked starvelings in prisons. _Real_ tough guys, your heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/131 "2024-11-21T13:08:51Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’da gone with ‘uppity’! I got absolutely wailed on for using that word on this message board. Funny how there are different rules. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/132 "2024-11-21T13:13:24Z")
Yes, ~~location, location, location~~ context, context, context. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/133 "2024-11-21T13:13:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > we have to consider the source as unreliable. > > Would you like any one of _numerous_ other reports on young kids being killed by IOF sniper fire? From a spectrum of different sources? Before I spend any effort, can you tell me who you would find reliable? Al Jazeera I assume is out. Guardian probably too leftist for you. Reuters? The BBC? The motherfucking [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-doctor-interviews.html) meet your standards? Are those fake X-Rays in their article? NPR has also interviewed doctors who claim they’ve seen kids who were targeted. Maybe those doctor are all Hamas. After all, they usually work for a suspect organization like doctors without borders. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > Do I think that kind of scum would balk at sniping kids? No, I do not. > > Your hatred for Jews is alarming. Really alarming that you’d think Joe Israeli Soldier is keen on shooting a child. I am a Jew. I don’t hate Jews. And i doubt there’s an official Israeli policy to take out little kids. But i think there is a significant minority of Israelis who are happy to do that. And the evidence suggests that the army isn’t restraining them, but is enabling them. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is that a distinction worth making in this case? Hell yes. I’m going to be partially responsible for Trump’s atrocities. But I’m not responsible for Israel’s. Well, not more than any other American. Are we done discussing what the definition of a pogrom is? As for whether whatever happened in Amsterdam was a pogrom, personally, i feel like there are too many basic facts of the incident in dispute to certain for broadest definition of pogrom, but it seemed less deadly and less targeted at “people living in a place” than my working definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/134 "2024-11-21T13:15:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Apologies to puzzlegal for the hijack, etc. Thanks. I accepted that risk when i started the OP in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/135 "2024-11-21T13:26:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “He don’t know me very well, do he?” No offense, but I’m glad you stayed home in this election. I’m kind of over South Africans who come to the United States and fuck up our elections. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/136 "2024-11-21T13:28:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I got absolutely wailed on for using that word on this message board. Funny how there are different rules. That’s kind of the point. Do you understand, or would spelling it out be helpful? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/137 "2024-11-21T13:52:21Z")
Oh…I am clear about it. I sure went through the wringer on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/138 "2024-11-21T13:55:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Oh…I am clear about it. If you are clear on that, then you understand that there are no different rules. If you think this illustrates different rules, you’re super confused. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/139 "2024-11-21T13:56:52Z")
If I were able to vote in the USA, I’d probably have voted a straight Democrat ticket in every non-local election, just FYI. I may be far left but I’m also practical. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2024, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460/140 "2024-11-21T13:57:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you are clear on that, then you understand that there are no different rules. If you think this illustrates different rules, you’re super confused. Huh?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-a-pogrom-from-a-race-riot/1010460.md?page=8)