# What distinguishes "justice" from "vengeance"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888 "2013-09-15T04:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/1 "2013-09-15T04:14:38Z")
I think most of us would attribute a noble connotation to the word “justice” and a rather sinister connotation to “vengeance.” But what really sets the two apart? Is there a real distinction between the two, or could one be said to be a subset of the other? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/2 "2013-09-15T04:43:56Z")
If you want to put it into words, vengeance/revenge would be taking justice into your own hands. You’re getting payback (punishment/justice) on your own without the help of the legal system that’s already in place. They’re sort of one in the same, but I think often when vengeance is used, emotions get in the way and the person carrying out the punishment may make it too severe or even take it out on the wrong person…that’s why we have justice, to help make sure that doesn’t happen (as often). ---
**Author:** ![Gateway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gateway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gateway)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/3 "2013-09-15T04:51:03Z")
Vengence: wrath based on wanting 2 pay sum1 back, but its not necessarily what they deserve. Justice: PUNISHMENT due to what the other person DESERVES according to their wrongdoing. Justice is like precise karma but vengence alone just means you want to hurt them for hurting you, not necessarily right or wrong. Also vengence is emotional, justice can be cold and is precise (think of the scales often used to represent justice) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/4 "2013-09-15T05:03:04Z")
> [@Gateway](#): > > Vengence: wrath based on wanting 2 pay sum1 back, but its not necessarily what they deserve. Says who? (I mean, who says it’s not what they deserve) > [@](#): > > Justice: PUNISHMENT due to what the other person DESERVES according to their wrongdoing. Based on what? What I’m getting at here, is that you seem to be saying that vengeance is just a more severe punishment. If someone kills my daughter (on purpose, premeditated) so I go and hunt them down and give them a bunch of nasty paper cuts or break some of their toes and I’m now at peace with it, is that justice or vengeance? ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/5 "2013-09-15T05:24:41Z")
evil laughter? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/6 "2013-09-15T05:30:45Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > evil laughter? evil laughter? ---
**Author:** ![Gateway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dbc845/32.png) [@Gateway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gateway)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/7 "2013-09-15T06:36:43Z")
Says who? **Me** (I mean, who says it’s not what they deserve) **It can be, but isn’t always** Based on what? **The definition of words, truth, my understanding** What I’m getting at here, is that you seem to be saying that vengeance is just a more severe punishment. **I’m not.** ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/8 "2013-09-15T07:27:01Z")
An impartial third party. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/9 "2013-09-15T10:08:12Z")
Justice is when act of correction is handed out by those with the power to the sword, that is the State. Vengeance is when the sword is wielded by those without the authority to do so as an act of revenge. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/10 "2013-09-15T12:41:13Z")
The largest and most physically powerful organization in a given area often uses its power to maintain a monopoly on the use of force. The use of force against someone accused of wrongdoing is called ‘justice’ when done by this entity (or by others with its permission) and is called ‘vengeance’ when done without its permission. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/11 "2013-09-15T12:44:46Z")
Vengeance is personal. Justice is community-based. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/12 "2013-09-15T13:12:23Z")
Retributive punishment (vengeance) is part and parcel of any justice system. That punishment may come in the form of a fine, community service or being segregated from society for a period of time but it must be present for there to be justice. But if the punishment exceeds the severity of the transgression you certainly don’t have justice. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/13 "2013-09-15T14:48:14Z")
A trial. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/14 "2013-09-15T15:18:26Z")
To paraphrase Clarence Darrow, no one knows what justice is, but we do know love and mercy. Let’s focus more on those things and less seeking “justice.” ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/15 "2013-09-15T15:28:55Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > To paraphrase Clarence Darrow, no one knows what justice is, but we do know love and mercy. Let’s focus more on those things and less seeking “justice.” That is a naive way of looking at it. We know more about the science of evil, wrongdoing and the effectiveness of punishing now. We know when leniency is in order and when not. With regard to the OP, this Cracked article has some good points. [The 5 Ugly Lessons Hiding in Every Superhero Movie | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-ugly-lessons-hiding-in-every-superhero-movie/) Justice is community based, revenge is doted out by the individual. Justice makes sure they’ve got their facts straight, revenge…not always. Justice takes into account the intent, revenge doesn’t always. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/16 "2013-09-15T15:48:09Z")
Easy. Justice is punishment. Vengeance is retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/17 "2013-09-15T16:31:12Z")
I guess the OP has been reading [Plato’s Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_(Plato)). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/18 "2013-09-15T16:39:45Z")
There’s no difference between vengeance and punishment. So where justice becomes a different thing is where you’re considering, for example, the outcome of a court case. Justice is done if the outcome of the court case correctly reflects what actually happened and who violated the law. Justice ultimately means fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/19 "2013-09-16T15:26:05Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > That is a naive way of looking at it. We know more about the science of evil, wrongdoing and the effectiveness of punishing now. We know when leniency is in order and when not. > . Sure, but we can never answer “what is the right amount of ‘justice?’” We can go overboard. (in the criminal context) Is a month in jail sufficient for a certain crime? A year? Ten years? We can’t know, even with our “science.” We can’t go too far, however, with things like mercy, compassion, and understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888/20 "2013-09-16T16:01:22Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Sure, but we can never answer “what is the right amount of ‘justice?’” We can go overboard. (in the criminal context) Is a month in jail sufficient for a certain crime? A year? Ten years? We can’t know, even with our “science.” We can’t go too far, however, with things like mercy, compassion, and understanding. You can certainly go too far with mercy and compassion. I’ve seen people get walked all over by others because they have too much mercy and compassion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-distinguishes-justice-from-vengeance/668888.md?page=2)