# What do Christians do about . . . "Christians"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2000, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417 "2000-01-31T02:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/81 "2000-02-03T06:38:00Z")
Pat Robertson just looooves people like you. No nasty letters. No exposing his madness. No telling people about his fraudulent ways. Just pray really, really hard and God will make everything better. Your religion has a major cancer, and you want to play Christian Scientist. Just great. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/82 "2000-02-03T07:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I prayed, never said anything to anyone about it and wouldn’t you know, God fixed it WITHOUT me!! Well, Tassey probably _would_ have done something more (she was ready to fire off a letter on her computer) if God hadn’t intervened. But He did. Oh, I know you don’t believe that, but the bottom line is, the problem that was vexing Tassey became resolved. _Bottom Line._ Got a problem with that? Got a problem with a problem being _solved?_ And, who says she was going to sit around (or any of us are going to sit around) and “just pray”? None of us have said that. Just you, and your cute little “Christian Scientist” crack. I also have to say, I found tomndebb’s lengthy post quite iluminating - and that fraternity analogy was pretty effective at explaining many things, in my opinion. I am a little surprised that you have no comments or insights to share with us about that post, slythe. ---
**Author:** ![Tassey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@Tassey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tassey)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/83 "2000-02-03T07:13:00Z")
Slythe, the one thing that many people are forgetting in this argument is that there are many different doctrines within Judeo Christian religions. Just because someone does not believe exactly the way I do, does not nullify their Christianity (assuming that they profess to be Christian). I am one of those people who see something wrong w/pretty much every denomination, in addition to what is right. I have my opinions about different religions but what makes my opinion better than anyone elses? Furthermore, previous opinions that I have held, have drastically changed. What if I had attacked people w/my previously held erroneous opinions? I would have been very wrong and very well could have damaged people, in the process. Again, I directed this to Christians because if one is not a Christian, then that person wouldn’t really understand the concept of trusting an omniscient God to do the work as He sees fit. The bottom line here is that the problem (in my church) was worked out, the practice is no longer being practiced. Prayer worked. (For those of you who are not Christian, feel free to chalk it up to coincidence.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/84 "2000-02-03T07:16:00Z")
An unstated problem at an unstated time is solved by someone or something, so God must have done it, and that’s all the proof we need, yesseree bob. What we actually have is, Tassey percieved that there was a problem, but didn’t have an opportunity to do anything about it. The situation changes, as most situations do, this time for the better, and I get to give credit to God. Thanks, but no thanks. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/85 "2000-02-03T07:21:00Z")
Tassey wrote: > [@](#): > > (For those of you who are not Christian, feel free to chalk it up to coincidence.) And so you don’t believe it? That her prayers were answered? Why, _what_ a shock. \ Of course, Tassey wasn’t really directing her insights to you. She says as much in her posts. I mean, she _knows_ and is fully aware that non-Christians will find her story moot, a coincidence, etc. So—your point is…? To tell us what we already know? Gee, thanks. I’m still curious what you think about the fraternity analogy, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/86 "2000-02-03T07:26:00Z")
Tass, could you just tell us in general what the problem was, and how God solved the problem? Are you saying that there was no human intervention? Did some event miraculously un-make itself? Did someone who was doing something wrong hear a loud voice from above? I am _not_ being sarcastic. I am looking for what you believe is the work of God, versus the works of people who bust ass trying to fix problems but never get the credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/87 "2000-02-03T07:29:00Z")
Hmmm…redirecting, redirecting, ignoring my comments quite effectively, aren’t you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/88 "2000-02-03T07:40:00Z")
Yosemitebabe, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know that this was a “Preaching to the Converted” thread. Why don’t you let me know when you care about the opinions of us non-believers, and we’ll chime in then, okay? Tassey made it sound like some great problem solved itself without human intervention, and I dared to question the event. As far as the Frat Story goes, I found it to be a weak analogy at best. Perhaps if someone had written a piece in the campus paper naming names and denouncing specific practices, outing them(so to speak), I might side with the argument. Do _you_ have anything to say about Squints Robertson “healing” anonymous people through the T.V. set, or Benny Hinn saving the same people who follow his crusade, over and over and over? Unless I’m mistaken, they ARE the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/89 "2000-02-03T08:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by slythe: > Yosemitebabe, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know that this was a “Preaching to the Converted” thread. Why don’t you let me know when you care about the opinions of us non-believers, and we’ll chime in then, okay? Tassey had a little “aside” to the Christians in the thread. You feel compelled to be rather snide and question her personal experience (which she bent over backwards to acknowledge would not be appreciated by non-Christians.) Fine. But what does that have to do with the OP, exactly? > [@](#): > > Tassey made it sound like some great problem solved itself without human intervention, and I dared to question the event. And we are _so_ bowled over and _utterly shocked_ that you didn’t believe her story! [/sarcasm] And you just couldn’t contain yourself, you had to question her story, and be sarcastic about it. Oh - what - a - shock. An atheist didn’t believe her. Color me amazed. > [@](#): > > As far as the Frat Story goes, I found it to be a weak analogy at best. Perhaps if someone had written a piece in the campus paper naming names and denouncing specific practices, outing them(so to speak), I might side with the argument. I think that Tom covered why most Christians don’t feel the need to “out” these nutjobs. Most of us feel it is pretty obvious. I’ll quote the pertinent part of his post: > [@](#): > > If (in my analogy) I run out on the field screaming “You people are a disgrace to the fraternity way!”, no one is going to be impressed. The 10% who chose not to join are not going to “see the light” because a frat person spoke out against the idiots. The 90% who did join are going to say “We know they’re not representative, so what’s your point.” There’s a lot more to the analogy, and I think it explains this issue well, but if you don’t think so, oh well. > [@](#): > > Do _you_ have anything to say about Squints Robertson “healing” anonymous people through the T.V. set, or Benny Hinn saving the same people who follow his crusade, over and over and over? Unless I’m mistaken, they ARE the topic of this thread. Oh, we are going to switch from asking Tassy about her personal experience of an answered prayer and get back to the OP? Goodie! To answer - I think these guys are nutjobs, sure. I think it should be obvious to most people that they are. And to the lost souls that are not clued in - what can ya do? Tell them, try to reason with them, but they are going to believe what they are going to believe. Just like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/90 "2000-02-03T08:23:00Z")
They are the ones doing the damage to the name of Christianity, not me, Yose. I still see it as a case of someone ruining your “credit” rating, while you sit back and pretend that people will know instinctively which social debts are yours, and which are the “so-called” Christians. In the meantime, your credit is going straight down the toilet. But if you want to pretend that _I_ am the problem, go right ahead. While you are directing your weak attempts at sarcasm at me, Squints is decieving a few million more people. You might not think that they are worth helping in as direct a way as is possible, but I do. But that’s atheism for you. Always trying to do the right thing, even if we can’t find the right verse in the Bible for it. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/91 "2000-02-03T08:36:00Z")
To quote Tom: > [@](#): > > The last figures I saw for North America showed 86% of the people identified as Christian and only 8.5% of the people identified as either atheist or non-religious. (The remaining numbers were religious but not Christian.) If the numbers Tom gives are correct, he brings up a good point. People who identify themselves as “Christian” make up almost 90% of the population. Presumably, as Tom says, the members of the Christian “frat” _know_ who is “really” representing them, and who isn’t. And, the members of the Christian “frat” are pretty high, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/92 "2000-02-03T08:46:00Z")
Except for the fact that the “hooligans” also count themselves to be among the(highly disputed) 90%. A better question would be what percentage of people in the U.S. fall into _your_ definition of Christian? And by the way, it doesn’t matter a whit what the proper Christian community says about who represents them. If the nutcases say on national television and radio that they are the true messengers of Christianity, and an equally loud voice doesn’t dispute them, they DO represent Christianity to the outside world. Just ask China…oops, I mean Taiwan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/93 "2000-02-03T09:09:00Z")
Eh. You know what? You are utterly convinced that no matter what, Christians are looking like assholes. No matter what. What a shocker. The point _is_…according to Tom’s post, a high percentage of people in North America identify themselves as Christian. We can dispute the numbers, but it chances are that the percentage is high. Whether they are nutjobs, or kind, charitable, whatever, this high percentage of people think they are _Christians._ Therefore, they don’t think that the “group” (Christianity) they belong to has no “credibility” - they _belong_ to the group. If they thought it was a shitty “group” to belong to, they’d leave. There have been a lot of thoughtful posts on here, written by some pretty thoughtful Christian people. They offer many reasons, explanations, theories, analogies in response to the OP. Now, you can decide that they are all full of shit, you can ignore them, that’s fine. But I actually _don’t_ think they’re full of shit. (Of course, I’m a Christian, so that’s no surprise.) I think they have some good points in explaining what’s going on in the Christian community in regards to the OP, and why. Hey, we’re trying to tell you how we feel, but you don’t seem to be paying attention. You just keep repeating the same things you’ve obviously thought from the beginning, over and over. OK, fine. Think whatever you want. You will anyway. I guess we all will. Now, shifting gears a bit… > [@](#): > > While you are directing your weak attempts at sarcasm at me _ **What?!?!?** _ “Weak” attempts at sarcasm?!? I beg to differ! I think my sarcasm is pretty well-honed, actually. I was raised by a very sarcastic clan of people. It’s in the blood. > [@](#): > > But that’s atheism for you. Always trying to do the right thing, even if we can’t find the right verse in the Bible for it. Oh please. You were hoping to get a rise out of me with that statement, weren’t you? Oh - you and your self-righteous atheism. Oh yeah - _you_ are so morally superior. You’ve cornered the market on it. Uh huh. {yawn} Heard it all before, honey. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/94 "2000-02-03T13:38:00Z")
That’s right, Yose. I’m what’s wrong with Christianity. Whatever makes you happy. For the teeming millions out there that can see the problem, what(besides sitting at home and fretfully praying about it) can be done on a larger scale to stop those who defraud on a national, and even international, level in the name of Christianity? They are poisoning the well, and many innocent people are getting hurt. I really do not think that letting them go on, in the hopes that someone might convert to Christianity anyway, is very healthy. I welcome any solutions that involve some sort of _active_ participation, along the lines of what Polycarp has done, but maybe on an organized and larger level. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/95 "2000-02-03T14:25:00Z")
Yosemite: In all fairness, I think you might be letting slythe’s atheism blind you a little. Neither he nor I, are claiming that Christians are being assholes. Rather the claim is that there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of rejection of some of the more vile messages coming from some perceived Christian leaders. If you don’t object to it, the logical conclusion is that you have some level of acceptance of it. Again, the facts of this are: 1. They claim to be Christian. Christians do not seem to object to this publically or en masse, therefore logically we can assume this is true. 2. They speak publically a claimed Christian message, therefore they can be considered Christian leaders. Christians do not seem to object to this publically or en masse, therefore logically we can assume this to be true. 3. Parts of their message seem rather hate filled and vile. 4. Somebody seeing this could conclude that parts of the Christian message are hate filled and vile. 5. Christianity suffers a loss of reputation as a result. This does not imply that Christians are assholes or Christianity sucks. It is reality. It is also your religion. It isn’t up to atheists to rush to Christianity’s defense. If you want to save the reputation of Christianity then do so. As above, the general consensus seems to be, Christians would rather let God do the judging in the end. Okay, no problem, as long as you’re willing to live with the ramifications that in the here and now, Christianity suffers for it. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/96 "2000-02-03T15:40:00Z")
How about books that procliam the problem explained by slythe. They probably don’t exist… Beg to differ. [Christianity in Crisis](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565076966/ref=sim_books/103-6626192-7955047) [Counterfeit Revival](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849911826/qid=949591308/sr=1-6/103-6626192-7955047) [A Different Gospel](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565631323/ref=sim_books/103-6626192-7955047) But you probably don’t see much of those. How about radio broadcasts: [Bible Answerman Broadcast](http://www.equip.org/bam/) - compelte with Real Audio achives of past shows. He speaks out against false techers practically every night. But you probably don’t tune into a radio station that carries his show. The materials and such are out there for those that look for it. [Joni Eareckson Tada](http://www.joniandfriends.org/) is a quadaplegic who has a ministry that seeks to minister to those who are disabled. She has nothing good to say about the ‘Faith Movement’. Peace. * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/97 "2000-02-03T15:44:00Z")
Navigator: Touche. My claim has always been based on not seeing any attempt from Christians. Without, that foundation the rest collapses. All, I can say now is I hope they succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/98 "2000-02-03T16:02:00Z")
You are a most admirable man. This is not the first time I have seen you change your mind on the spot when presented with compelling argument or evidence. Men like you continue to grow and learn, while narrow-minded men continue to shrink and wilt. God go with you always, Glitch. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/99 "2000-02-03T16:09:00Z")
Glitch: I appreciate that. FWIW, I was posting to everyone that says nothing is being done, not only to you… 🙂 * * * † Jon † Phillipians 4:13 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417/100 "2000-02-03T20:37:00Z")
slythe: > [@](#): > > That’s right, Yose. I’m what’s wrong with Christianity. Whatever makes you happy. Huh? Where have I suggested that you are “what’s wrong with Christianity”? You are not really involved. This is about Christians, right? And you aren’t one. Please cut and paste anything I posted here where I suggested that _you_ are to blame. You are disdainful and contemptuous of Christianity, snide, and many things…but that has nothing to do with the OP directly. From what I can see, you’ve been like that for a long time. Navigator - Thanks so much for the links! I am bookmarking them, and I’ll be looking into getting the books. (Like Amazon needs more money from me…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-christians-do-about-christians/17417.md?page=6)