# What do conservatives have against labor unions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071 "2008-11-30T18:08:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/141 "2008-12-01T20:15:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And the UAW seems to be an experiment on the other side - give the unions what they ask for to buy labor peace, and see what happens to the industry in which they work. You could then compare it to another company with a very different union attitude, like Toyota, and see who turns a profit and who asks for government bailouts. > > Regards, > Shodan Which won’t be a good comparison for another 50 years. It does no good to compare a 20 year history to a 70 year history; you just can’t reasonably claim equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/142 "2008-12-01T20:25:08Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > A quick question. If a worker earns $50K a year for 20 years. He then retires, and receives a pension of $25K for 20 years before he kicks the bucket. > > What would you say his yearly compensation was? $50k plus whatever the principal of that $25k is, which is going to be less than the matured value of the investment. Or less, if you’re counting inflation over 40 years. Here’s a quick question for you: A worker makes $40k a year, which includes a $10k yearly contribution on his behalf to a pension fund, and a retiree draws $25k a year from the same pension fund, what would you say the yearly compensation of the first guy was? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/143 "2008-12-01T20:27:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Which won’t be a good comparison for another 50 years. It does no good to compare a 20 year history to a 70 year history; you just can’t reasonably claim equivalence. Compare them over the same period. Things don’t have to be exactly the same age to compare them; otherwise there would be no way to distinguish Obama from McCain. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/144 "2008-12-01T20:31:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Which won’t be a good comparison for another 50 years. It does no good to compare a 20 year history to a 70 year history; you just can’t reasonably claim equivalence. Especially without accounting for the non-equivalence in product lines. Detroit has staked its future on being able to sell gas-guzzlers until the end of time. Small, well-built, fuel efficient vehicles have always been an afterthought for them. How is that the fault of the UAW? Hell, the only reason I’m looking at a Pontiac right now is that it’s made by Toyota. At it’s also the most fuel efficient car that GM sells. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/145 "2008-12-01T20:35:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Compare them over the same period. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml) > [@](#): > > The first foreign-owned plants didn’t start up here until the 1980s; many of the existing ones came well after that. _As of a year ago, Toyota’s entire U.S. operation had less than 1,000 retirees._ Compare that to a company like General Motors, which has been around for more than a century and which supports literally hundreds of thousands of former workers and spouses. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/146 "2008-12-01T20:40:23Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > So this business owner, even though he \*\*\*was \*\*\*an idiot, should have been forced to continue paying him money if he did not want to? > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris In a union labor setting, we do tend to negotiate contracts that give the worker greater job security than getting fired one day just because mangement is in a bad mood. FTR, General Jerk-Off couldn’t have been forced to “continue” to pay the kid anything because he never paid him anything at all. It was the kid’s first day on the job and he got canned while we were still loading the trucks up. I suppose he could have pushed it that he was owed an hour’s wages; but I guess he decided it was worth a couple dollars not to deal with such a person again. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/147 "2008-12-01T20:49:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I’ll leave it to SB to decide whether or not he wants to attempt to provide you with the cites you are requesting, skewed the way you want with all those added caveats. My guess though is what he’s talking about are US unions, illustrated by the manufacturing industries that have essentially priced themselves (and by extension by and large entire sectors of US manufacturing) out of the market. Correct. I come from the Rust Belt, and it was basically the inevitable end of unions. I don’t want to be in one, and I refuse to help anyone hijack me about it. I don’t want their “protections,” and I don’t want their fees. I don’t really give a rat’s arse what they do on their own dime, but leave me out of it. Unfortunately, unions are constantly seeking government protection, the right to mess with employers or stop up their lines through otherwise illegal acts, and to force me into their little collective. That said, I don’t mind collective barganing. Leftists have constantly and continually asserted that only through unions is there collective bargaining. This is not so, but unions are the easiest method. I prefer temporary associations, because they do not create long-term entrenched interests. FInally, I meant kneecapping (primarily) in the non-physical sense. Unions foten go out of their way to sabotage non-union employees by negotiations with management excluding non-unionists from certain jobs, or preferential union promotions. I don’t like that. Unions would have a better time convincing me if they didn’t basically attempt to screw me over constantly or force me to join, or didn’t tell me how awful I was if I don’t support them. Since my every interaction with them has basically started with them acting condescending towards me, or simply starting with the bile before I even had me say, I’ve come to realize union organizers and managers are pretty much all giant flaming douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/148 "2008-12-01T21:06:32Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > But why should business owners be forced to give union benefits to people who would rather do without them instead of paying dues? > > _The worker is saying he wants to be a non-union worker for an owner. The owner agrees and proceeds to compensate him in return for his work. The government steps in and says, “Oh no! Can’t have that!”_ > Can you spot the error? > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris Know of any cases with two tier union/non-union systems - besides the obvious one where non-union management gets paid more. I don’t know if unions even try to negotiate for that, and I doubt management would keep such a system given the obvious conflicts it would cause. I personally think it would be dandy if someone were willing to work longer hours with less benefits and less pay just to avoid joining a union. It would demonstrate the benefits pretty well. I don’t think this is too practical. As an example, actors don’t have to join SAG. They can work exclusively on non-union jobs. But if they want the better pay, better conditions, faster pay, and residuals of a union job, then they have to join. I’m not aware of too many professional actors who stay away from union jobs on principle. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/149 "2008-12-01T21:18:43Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > $50k plus whatever the principal of that $25k is, which is going to be less than the matured value of the investment. But where the money comes from is irrelevant. Regardless how the money is earned by the company, the employee is compensated $75K for each year of work provided. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/150 "2008-12-01T21:21:26Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Haven’t seen it mentioned yet, but government unions, especially teachers’ unions are literally sucking on the government’s teat. > > Here in MN, the biggest single item on the state government budget is education. You know who spends the most money lobbying? The teachers union. > > So the union lobbies for more money, in turn gets more money from dues, and then lobbies the gov. for more money. Tax payers are essentially paying the salaries of guys who are asking for more tax payer money! There is no checks or balances. In my district, the teachers and the administrators are on the same side in this matter, but school boards can’t spend their money trying to improve the conditions for their students, and teachers can. Do you think that money paid to a teacher for doing her job isn’t hers for some reason? Are you okay with them using it to support someone running against a current state official? Maybe the reason for this is that teachers, in my district, often pay out of their own pockets for supplies the schools can no longer afford, and teachers see firsthand the impact or reduced budgets. Very little lobbying I’ve seen would raise teacher’s salaries, which is something set by the local district anyway. It is mostly for fewer students per classroom and for better facilities. Maybe I should start another thread asking why conservatives hate teachers. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/151 "2008-12-01T21:33:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe the reason for this is that teachers, in my district, often pay out of their own pockets for supplies the schools can no longer afford, and teachers see firsthand the impact or reduced budgets. Very little lobbying I’ve seen would raise teacher’s salaries, which is something set by the local district anyway. It is mostly for fewer students per classroom and for better facilities. _Raises hand_ I have. Strictly speaking, however, it’s not teachers per se who are the problems, and you’ll see that teachers in more conservative areas tend to be better and cause fewer problems. We’re fine with our teachers. It’s the ones in big urban zones which cause trouble, and even then they are only a part of the overall problem. That’s a social, attitudinal, and structural issue. Big cities often have huge, entrenched, and generally useless bureaucracies which do very little and cost a whole lot. Good teachers go to the suburbs or wealthier rural areas. And the real argument tends not to be over money so much as hiring/firing. I wouldn’t mind spending more money on education if I knew it was going to go to something good. Right now, it’s kinda a black hole into which money vanishes in many areas. Teachers unions, for some ungodly reason, push the idiot idea that Money = Good, which is at least as simple as it is wrongheaded. But they fight ferociously against relaxing tenure rules. I’d be willing to trade cash for tenure, because there are people who have no reason to be teaching, period, but still get to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/152 "2008-12-01T21:36:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > For the same reason that it’s always seen as the companies fault by the liberals? That’s the problem with trying to arbitrarily assign ‘fault’ to a complex situation. > > Why do all these freedom loving liberals never blame the unions for the deals they forced down the throats of the corporations? > > -XT In a strike, who do you think is under more personal pressure - labor or management? Management is going to be able to eat no matter how long it lasts - labor, not so much. I was working for AT&T, as management, during a strike, and it didn’t affect me at all. The ability to strike is all that workers have. I’ll agree that a strong union weak management situation is bad, just like the reverse. The car makers problems stem from the early '50s, when they decided to pay for all sorts of medical benefits instead of supporting universal government benefits, like in Japan. If they had, that $70 loaded rate would be much reduced. Is it any wonder that the same management who screwed up their portfolio of cars also screwed up labor settlements? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/153 "2008-12-01T21:40:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Correct. I come from the Rust Belt, and it was basically the inevitable end of unions. I don’t want to be in one, and I refuse to help anyone hijack me about it. I don’t want their “protections,” and I don’t want their fees. > > I don’t really give a rat’s arse what they do on their own dime, but leave me out of it. Unfortunately, unions are constantly seeking government protection, the right to mess with employers or stop up their lines through otherwise illegal acts, and to force me into their little collective. > > That said, I don’t mind collective barganing. Leftists have constantly and continually asserted that only through unions is there collective bargaining. This is not so, but unions are the easiest method. I prefer temporary associations, because they do not create long-term entrenched interests. > > FInally, I meant kneecapping (primarily) in the non-physical sense. Unions foten go out of their way to sabotage non-union employees by negotiations with management excluding non-unionists from certain jobs, or preferential union promotions. I don’t like that. > > Unions would have a better time convincing me if they didn’t basically attempt to screw me over constantly or force me to join, or didn’t tell me how awful I was if I don’t support them. Since my every interaction with them has basically started with them acting condescending towards me, or simply starting with the bile before I even had me say, I’ve come to realize union organizers and managers are pretty much all giant flaming douchebags. First, you’re previous statements was: > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Unions inevitably cannibalize the industries upon which they feed, destroying the jobs which hey profesed to protect. This is a sweeping, uncategorical, universal declaration. I asked for a cite to prove this, but haven’t seen it. If you don’t mean what you say, why do you say it? Second, the tone of your last post is incredibly hostile. Often in life we get back as good as we give. Take a deep breath, step back, and when you come back I’d love to look at your evidence that unions inevitably blah blah blah. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/154 "2008-12-01T21:55:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you think that money paid to a teacher for doing her job isn’t hers for some reason? Tell that to the teachers who are forced to pay union dues even if they aren’t part of the union. > [@](#): > > Maybe I should start another thread asking why conservatives hate teachers. I’m married to one. Take thy strawman elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/155 "2008-12-01T22:03:43Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > _Raises hand_ > > I have. Strictly speaking, however, it’s not teachers per se who are the problems, and you’ll see that teachers in more conservative areas tend to be better and cause fewer problems. We’re fine with our teachers. It’s the ones in big urban zones which cause trouble, and even then they are only a part of the overall problem. That’s a social, attitudinal, and structural issue. Big cities often have huge, entrenched, and generally useless bureaucracies which do very little and cost a whole lot. Good teachers go to the suburbs or wealthier rural areas. > > And the real argument tends not to be over money so much as hiring/firing. I wouldn’t mind spending more money on education if I knew it was going to go to something good. Right now, it’s kinda a black hole into which money vanishes in many areas. Teachers unions, for some ungodly reason, push the idiot idea that Money = Good, which is at least as simple as it is wrongheaded. But they fight ferociously against relaxing tenure rules. I’d be willing to trade cash for tenure, because there are people who have no reason to be teaching, period, but still get to do so. Money doesn’t cure everything, but it sure counts. When we moved from NJ to California, my daughter was almost a year ahead of her new classmates because our old district had an extra period a day because they had enough money to do it. My new district is big, but a good chunk of it consists of million dollar homes, and those kids lost out on the extra period also. The teachers for the rich high school where my son-in-went, were no better than those from the good but not rich high school where my daughter went. Most of the teachers were pretty good, but the teachers in our old district weren’t perfect either. I was heavily involved in our schools, both on site council and in a GATE parents organization, and the number one thing parents of GATE kids from the rich district wanted was enrichment. They didn’t think the schools were doing enough. Their kids were going to do fine, since they had parents who cared, but it shows that there was a problem from lack of resources even there. Money may not be equivalent to good, but no money isn’t either. Money let our old district teach language and science all through junior high, something not possible in our new district. Isn’t that good? BTW there is some quality control. I know a guy who started teach late in life, wasn’t good at it, and did not get tenure. I’m not against making it somewhat easier to fire bad teachers, but looking at test scores is not the way to do it. A friend of ours teaches 2nd grade in Arizona, and half her class moves out during the school year on average. How would you use standardized test results to measure her performance? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/156 "2008-12-01T22:17:34Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Tell that to the teachers who are forced to pay union dues even if they aren’t part of the union. That’s a very different objection. Your original one was objecting to teachers unions using money paid by the state (very indirectly) to lobby the state. I’m glad that your wife considers the money her school is getting to be adequate. I suspect many Doper teachers would love to know the location of this edenic district. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/157 "2008-12-01T22:32:43Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Maybe I should start another thread asking why conservatives hate teachers. [/QUOTE] You could ask them why they beat their wives too. 😉 > [@](#): > > In a strike, who do you think is under more personal pressure - labor or management? Management is going to be able to eat no matter how long it lasts - labor, not so much. I was working for AT&T, as management, during a strike, and it didn’t affect me at all. Why do you assume this? If a company can’t manufacture goods then it can’t sell anything. If it can’t provide services then it gets no revenue. Even if a company goes around the strike and hires a bunch of scabs there is going to be some level of retraining and cost associated with it. Also, strikes would lower stock values, at least in the short term, at least I should think so. I’d say it’s going to be a wash. On an individual basis a strike might be harder on the workers (though unions defray some of this cost IIRC), but the company isn’t exactly going to be turning cartwheels over it. That’s why strikes work, ehe? > [@](#): > > The ability to strike is all that workers have. I’ll agree that a strong union weak management situation is bad, just like the reverse. Workers have their labor to sell. If their labor is in demand, or if they are organized so that they can leverage their individual labor, they can attempt to leverage companies into paying a fair market price for their labor. I have zero issues with that. Where I have an issue is when unions get the government to bring pressure to bear in order to get MORE than a fair market price for their workers…or when unions use other unethical means to attempt to influence workers and the companies in order to further their own power. I have the same problem when companies attempt to do the same thing in order to pay less than a fair market price for labor, or to monopolize local work (i.e. company stores and company towns). > [@](#): > > The car makers problems stem from the early '50s, when they decided to pay for all sorts of medical benefits instead of supporting universal government benefits, like in Japan. If they had, that $70 loaded rate would be much reduced. Is it any wonder that the same management who screwed up their portfolio of cars also screwed up labor settlements? I think that’s another discussion…I’ll just say I disagree and move on. -XT ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/158 "2008-12-01T22:41:22Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > _Raises hand_ > > I have. Strictly speaking, however, it’s not teachers per se who are the problems, and you’ll see that teachers in more conservative areas tend to be better and cause fewer problems. We’re fine with our teachers. It’s the ones in big urban zones which cause trouble, and even then they are only a part of the overall problem. That’s a social, attitudinal, and structural issue. Big cities often have huge, entrenched, and generally useless bureaucracies which do very little and cost a whole lot. Good teachers go to the suburbs or wealthier rural areas. > > And the real argument tends not to be over money so much as hiring/firing. I wouldn’t mind spending more money on education if I knew it was going to go to something good. Right now, it’s kinda a black hole into which money vanishes in many areas. Teachers unions, for some ungodly reason, push the idiot idea that Money = Good, which is at least as simple as it is wrongheaded. But they fight ferociously against relaxing tenure rules. I’d be willing to trade cash for tenure, because there are people who have no reason to be teaching, period, but still get to do so. I know this is veering off-topic but I’m not following you here.. You (correctly, imo) label the problem as bureaucratic - the administrative structure being bloated etc. Then you proceed to lay blame on teachers unions and tenure. It takes 5 years to get tenure. There’s ample time to get rid of poor teachers before they are tenured. Please don’t blame a failure of administration on the teaching profession or any teachers ‘unions’ (if you can even really call them that). ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/159 "2008-12-02T00:38:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’ve seen it happen too. One poor slob got fired for asking when payday was. Never underestimate the power of a small business owner to be a jackass. A friend of mine was fired from her job at a small publisher because the bank she was seeking a mortgage from called to verify her employment. The employer viewed this as her receiving a personal call at a place of business. There really is no underestimating it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071/160 "2008-12-02T01:05:00Z")
Firing people because they ask when payday is, or because a mortgage company calls to verify employment, isn’t jerkish behavior–rather, it’s simply random, nonsensical behavior. This is what leads me to strongly suspect I am not hearing the whole story. If I could make sense of the actions as those of a jerk, that would be fine. But these actions don’t _even_ make sense as actions of jerks. They’re just nonsense. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-have-against-labor-unions/475071.md?page=9)