# What do conservatives think about universal healthcare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172 "2006-04-18T16:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/101 "2006-04-20T22:24:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I noted, though, that in this last post you replaced your definitive statements by an “I would guess” (note that you’re still completely mistaken). Maybe next time you’ll actually try to know how it actually works instead of making guesses you pulled out of thin air, and then go on using those unexisting facts of your own making as arguments to support your stance. How does it work in your neck of the woods? In the US, people have been told for years that we have the best healthcare system in the world. It is hard for many to accept that this isn’t the case based on real data. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/102 "2006-04-20T23:26:13Z")
Can anyone explain to me why a user-pay system would be cheaper for the average person? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/103 "2006-04-21T00:37:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Can anyone explain to me why a user-pay system would be cheaper for the average person? Current system employs a larger bureaucracy, many of whom are at odds with each other. ---
**Author:** ![WillMagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@WillMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/104 "2006-04-21T00:50:13Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > Well, exactly. Your positions in favor of letting anyone practice medicine (“Not to worry, you can sue them if they harm you!”) and letting any and all drugs be sold, untested, over the counter, are not those of a conservative, they’re those of an extremist. Sal, this is very disappointing. Labeling me an extremist and calling it a day will not cut it. Did you read the cites and arguments that demonstrated why the FDA does more harm than good? Yes? No? Maybe so? Any comments or refutation on those? Or are you going to label people like Gary Becker and Milton Friedman as extremists too, because they disagree with you and agree with me? (See the “appeal to authority” cite listed earlier.) My positions are extreme, yes. Why? Because I take a step back. The question you all are asking is “What role should the government play in health care?” I ask, “Should the government play a role in health care at all?” It’s a question that few people ask, and as such, the arguments I present will be different from ones you’ve heard before. > [@Voyager](#): > > As the man said, both the rich man and the poor man have the right to sleep under a bridge. The guy working minimum wage has the freedom to buy any insurance he wants. He also has the freedom to buy a Hummer. Just no money. Now, he doesn’t have the right to a car, but in a civilized nation he should have the right to see the doctor without driving himself into bankruptcy. Your thinking is muddled with regard to rights. The idea of having a “right” to health care is bizarre…because the labor of the doctor and the hospitals are all someone else’s property. How did you derive the principles behind this “right to see a doctor without going bankrupt?” Are they anywhere near as universal as the idea that each man owns his own life, and as such has the rights to his life, liberty, and property? Certainly, you have a right to voluntarily exchange for health care, but you have no inherent right to someone else’s labor. There’s a word for that. Slavery. Here’s the thing. We both desire the same outcome - cheaper, higher quality healthcare. But by deeming such healthcare a right, you imply that it is ok to violate other rights in order to grant every person that right. It’s not. **clairobscur** , I’m done responding to you. Have a nice life. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/105 "2006-04-21T01:13:23Z")
> [@WillMagic](#): > > Sal, this is very disappointing. Labeling me an extremist and calling it a day will not cut it… My positions are extreme, yes. I’ll content myself with saying that this is a thread about what conservatives think about universal healthcare, not about why society should be set up on “anarcho-capitalist” principles that few other than yourself believe in – a subject about which no one is stopping you from starting a thread, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/106 "2006-04-21T01:36:02Z")
> [@WillMagic](#): > > Sal, this is very disappointing. Labeling me an extremist and calling it a day will not cut it. Did you read the cites and arguments that demonstrated why the FDA does more harm than good? Yes? No? Maybe so? Any comments or refutation on those? Or are you going to label people like Gary Becker and Milton Friedman as extremists too, because they disagree with you and agree with me? (See the “appeal to authority” cite listed earlier.) Sal did not say your position on the FDA was extreme, but your position on licensing physicians. Suing is hardly a satisfactory response when a quack has mistreated someone beyond the recovery point. As for drugs, I’m sure you’re correct that consumers will study the market and the research and never buy, say, distilled water marketed as medicine. Oh wait… > [@](#): > > Your thinking is muddled with regard to rights. The idea of having a “right” to health care is bizarre…because the labor of the doctor and the hospitals are all someone else’s property. How did you derive the principles behind this “right to see a doctor without going bankrupt?” Are they anywhere near as universal as the idea that each man owns his own life, and as such has the rights to his life, liberty, and property? Certainly, you have a right to voluntarily exchange for health care, but you have no inherent right to someone else’s labor. There’s a word for that. Slavery. > > Here’s the thing. We both desire the same outcome - cheaper, higher quality healthcare. But by deeming such healthcare a right, you imply that it is ok to violate other rights in order to grant every person that right. It’s not. We live in a civilized society, not in anarchy. Every man has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as it says in the Declaration. We have the right to expect a degree of protection in our homes and on the streets. Doing so requires taxation for the greater good. I’m sorry if you think paying for the police is a violation of your rights - an absolute right to your income is a right you have made up - it is not a defensible one in any workable society. The right to some degree of health care is just as valid as the right to police protection. If you don’t think so, you are invited to find some like-minded people and buy an island in international waters. It would be interesting to see how your experiment goes. I think you are as unrealistic as the most utopian of pure communists. ---
**Author:** ![WillMagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@WillMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/107 "2006-04-21T01:57:00Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > I’ll content myself with saying that this is a thread about what conservatives think about universal healthcare, not about why society should be set up on “anarcho-capitalist” principles that few other than yourself believe in – a subject about which no one is stopping you from starting a thread, by the way. Fair enough. All: I’ll stop hijacking the thread now. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/108 "2006-04-21T16:02:22Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Current system employs a larger bureaucracy, many of whom are at odds with each other. Can you elaborate on this? Perhaps you might include some cites. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172/109 "2006-04-21T17:04:44Z")
Note the European cites all discuss national, not EU/continental solutions. Why should the Federal government of the USA be given the task of implimenting Medicare/Medicaid Plus? Isn’t a system that’s farthest from its consumers, the more wasteful, sluggish and impersonal? Was the recently signed, statewide, nearly universal [Massachusetts Health Care Plan](http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060404_152510.htm) a compromise the left and right can embrace? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-conservatives-think-about-universal-healthcare/353172.md?page=5)