# What do creation scientists believe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070 "2003-02-01T08:09:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/61 "2003-02-02T20:29:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* \*\*Who decides that 2+2=4 is a fact? \*\* In my math, 2 + 2 = 11.\* > [@](#): > > What should be on the test should be a basic, high school understanding of evolution. How is it defined? What is natural selection? How long does it take? What is radiocarbon dating?Perhaps a basic timeline for the descent of homo sapiens. Nothing too complicated, just a basic FAQ. I think that’s a great idea. I just think if an equal level of understanding of all equally important topics is going to be required, we have to reserve several week for taking the test. I also think that there are important areas of knowledge where the answers are more debatable than in math and evolution. (Example: Woodrow Wilson was a great president: True or False? Depends a lot on your perspective.) > [@](#): > > And yes, I think that all kids should have to take the test, not just home schooled. I trhought it went without saying that public and private school kids were already tested on this material. Doubtful. And if they fail the hypothetical weeklong section on evolution, they could still easily pass the class and get a diploma… private or public. The biggest problem with the scheme is how to punish people who fail the “Test of Basic Fundamental Learning”. I favor suffrage only for those who pass. You? - To rip off Tom Lehrer, I’m missing seven fingers. ---
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/62 "2003-02-02T20:30:33Z")
oops. sorry about the formatting. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/63 "2003-02-02T20:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > What I actually feel is that children should be taught facts and not mythology. I can’t agree with this, in the sense that children should be taught how to properly view mythologies (ie not literal truth, but useful tools for understanding ourselves better), rather than to ignore them entirely. I do agree, though, that mythologies (or theories based upon mythologies) should not be passed along as objective fact. This is exactly the reason why creationists are incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/64 "2003-02-02T20:42:46Z")
I thought perhaps you operated to base 3, **nogginhead**. Here’s where I’d stand on requirements for home schooling – and for private fundy. religious schools, of which we have some around here: Students should be instructed in what the _evidence_ regarding the geologic time scale and the nature of fossils is reported to be in competent academic journals, at age-appropriate levels, of course. They should be taught the scientific method and how it works. If they choose to believe, or if their parents (or private school administration) choose to teach 'em that a literal reading of Genesis trumps theories based on geological and biological data, that’s their privilege – same right as allows the Raelians to believe that we’re all descended from clones of aliens. But they need to be given the raw material with which to decide whether their indoctrination into fundamentalist dogma accurately reflects the truth about the world or not. And I would prohibit as part of the curriculum the sorts of lies that some creationist groups perpetrate – the things **valerie** reiterated here about “evolution equals atheism” and “evolution is taught as a dogma.” (Side note: To be frank, some defenders of evolution _do_ sound strangely like devout fundamentalists offended at heretics condemning dogma – something I hope they will observe in themselves and watch out for!) RE: evaluating the WW presidency. Kids should not be required to believe anybody’s particular political views to pass a class – even their parents’ if homeschooled. But they should be equipped with enough knowledge to be able to produce a meaningful age-appropriate essay on the topic “Was Woodrow Wilson a great president or not? Defend your answer.” Either yes, no, or “only sorta” would be acceptable answers; the grading would be on the basis of how well the kid made the case for the answer he/she chose. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/65 "2003-02-02T20:50:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _nogginhead_ > I think that’s a great idea. I just think if an equal level of understanding of all equally important topics is going to be required, we have to reserve several week for taking the test. I also think that there are important areas of knowledge where the answers are more debatable than in math and evolution. (Example: Woodrow Wilson was a great president: True or False? Depends a lot on your perspective.) I agree that testing should be more rigorous (I don’t know about several weeks, though-- I can see one week, which focuses on a different area every day) I also don’t have a problem with a series of questions (like your hypotheitical about Wilson) which would require students to give some reasoned, well argued _opinions_ about things rather than just regurgitating facts. > [@](#): > > Doubtful. And if they fail the hypothetical weeklong section on evolution, they could still easily pass the class and get a diploma… private or public. > > The biggest problem with the scheme is how to punish people who fail the “Test of Basic Fundamental Learning”. I favor suffrage only for those who pass. You? I agree. No student should be given a diploma he/she doesn’t deserve. If they fail only one section of a test, maybe they should be permitted to retake that section (after a minimum passage of time) and thus be granted their diploma. If a student fails every, or most sections, then make them repeat the entire year. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/66 "2003-02-02T20:57:25Z")
2+2=4 is easy to prove with the Peano Axioms. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/67 "2003-02-02T20:58:29Z")
Well said, **poly** , you’re expessing my own views better than I did. **JustPlainBryan** , I agree with you. What I should have said was that Religious mythology should not be taught as scientific fact. I actually wouldn’t have a problem with schools, even public schools, teaching a basic overview of world religions-- not in a devotional sense, but simply going through some major world religions and explaining that “this is what Muslims believe…this is what Buddhists believe…” etc. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/68 "2003-02-02T21:13:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree with you. What I should have said was that Religious mythology should not be taught as scientific fact. I actually wouldn’t have a problem with schools, even public schools, teaching a basic overview of world religions-- not in a devotional sense, but simply going through some major world religions and explaining that “this is what Muslims believe…this is what Buddhists believe…” etc. Agreed. This also gives students the ability to see the folly of religious extremism, while at the same time teaching a respect for the beliefs of others. ---
**Author:** ![nogginhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5e9695/32.png) [@nogginhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogginhead)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/69 "2003-02-02T21:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > I actually wouldn’t have a problem with schools, even public schools, teaching a basic overview of world religions-- not in a devotional sense, but simply going through some major world religions and explaining that “this is what Muslims believe…this is what Buddhists believe…” etc. \*\* I’d go further and say this ought to be required learning… put it on the “Test of Basic Fundamental Learning” ™ and maybe Pat Roberston won’t go around defaming the prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/70 "2003-02-02T21:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Just PlainBryan_ > Agreed. This also gives students the ability to see the folly of religious extremism, while at the same time teaching a respect for the beliefs of others. > [@](#): > > _nogginhead_ > I’d go further and say this ought to be required learning… put it on the “Test of Basic Fundamental Learning” ™ and maybe Pat Roberston won’t go around defaming the prophet. I concur on both counts. Presenting factual information about other religions and cultures is not the same as endorsing or promoting them. I think too many people are completely uninformed about other religions, even about other forms of their own religions. Schools are about eliminating ignorance, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/71 "2003-02-02T22:05:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*2+2=4 is easy to prove with the Peano Axioms. \*\* And it’s even _easier_ to prove using the fingers of one fully equipped hand. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/72 "2003-02-02T22:43:16Z")
I’m not sure that adding with your fingers constitutes _proof_ - in the same way that dropping an object doesn’t _prove_ the gravity theory. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/73 "2003-02-02T23:10:21Z")
I still say that having the government mandate certain topics that parents must teach their children at home is the slipperiest of Orwellian slippery slopes. And not letting people vote if they don’t pass some goverment mandated test? Why don’t we require them to pay a tax at the poll too? Or prove that their grandfather was a free man? I guess the way I see it is that it is ultimately the parent’s responsibility to see that their kids are educated, not the state’s. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/74 "2003-02-02T23:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*I’m not sure that adding with your fingers constitutes _proof_ - in the same way that dropping an object doesn’t _prove_ the gravity theory. \*\* That’s right. You have to show that for every time you use your fingers you will always get 4. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/75 "2003-02-02T23:25:50Z")
Should there be no standards at all then as to what home schoolers can teach? All children have a right to a sound education. It is the duty of the state to ensure that children receive one. If a parent is failing to provide a child with an sound education, then that child’s rights are being violated. If a child is being educated at home, then the state must verify that that education is sound. The state is obligated to protect the rights of children. Parents do not have a right to give their children an unsound education. Religious indoctrination is not education. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/76 "2003-02-03T00:00:28Z")
I don’t think it is the duty of the state to ensure children receive what the state defines as a sound education. It is the duty of the state to ensure that children are able to receive what the state defines as a sound education, should the parents decide to go that route. I guess I don’t equate not teaching your kids the exports of Brazil, or whatever, with child abuse. Requiring all American children to be educated a certain way tramples the Constitutional rights to free speech, and free religion, IMHO. I don’t post much to GD, usually because I don’t have the time to give these types of discussions the thoughtful replies they deserve, and I am afraid tonight is another one of those times. Real life is calling, and maybe we should continue this interesting subject on another thread? We have strayed far from the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/77 "2003-02-03T00:21:06Z")
Fair enough. I’ll think about how to word it and then, perhaps, write a new OP about the obligations of the state vis a vis the education of children. You’re right that we are waayyyy off topic here. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/78 "2003-02-03T01:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Incidentally, if any creationist can answer all 11 of my stumper questions, I’ll put their answers on my website, if you like. \*\* 11 stumper questions? I must have missed that the last time I visited your site! BTW-I was on another messageboard and I linked to one of your website essays, hope you don’t mind! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/79 "2003-02-03T02:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*11 stumper questions? I must have missed that the last time I visited your site! \*\* There are stumpers at the end of each of the two FAQ’s. The genetics one has 11 stumpers, and there are a number for the geology FAQ too. > [@](#): > > \*\* > BTW-I was on another messageboard and I linked to one of your website essays, hope you don’t mind! 😃 \*\* Which one? 🙂 When I get around to it, I’ll put up a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070/80 "2003-02-03T02:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* Which one? 🙂 When I get around to it, I’ll put up a lot more. \*\* I posted it somewhere on the [CreationTalk](http://creationtalk.com/cgi-bin/bb/Ultimate.cgi) website, to which you (and anyone else)are welcome (I asked a mod here, and the admins at both darwintalk and creationtalk if it would be alright to invite other people from other messageboards) to come and defend evolution (or _sigh_ creation). Granted I’m almost to the point where I’m _tearing_ my hair out. To be quite honest I’ve seen you debate on other boards and I don’t know how you on other boards and I don’t know how you do it. I still try to present my cases straight forwardly, but their are a few posters that are driving me crazy (I think if you look, it will be _obvious_ who those posters are). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-creation-scientists-believe/152070.md?page=5)