# What do credit card companies report to the IRS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 31, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002 "2021-12-31T20:01:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2022, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/23 "2022-01-01T20:49:07Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > In one notorious case the bank teller advised the restaurant owners that it would be simpler to break up weekly restaurant deposits into less-than-$10,000 amounts so she (the teller) would not have file paperwork about large cash transactions. > > I yield to one with first hand knowledge, but from what I’ve read almost anything the bank staff deem as suspicious _could_ lead to a SAR. It’s simpler to report and let the FBI or IRS worry about it, than to risk the bank being fined. However, the result is a flood of reports which most don’t rise to the elvel of attracting an in-depth investigation. Yes, that could happen, and the teller who advised that could be facing charges also. The bank is in a quandary: Report too much (CYA SARS) and you end up alienating good customers. Don’t report enough- and you could face fines and/or sanctions. Most banks err on the side of caution. However, it has been shown that the best thing to do is hire accredited experts, who then make the judgement calls. It is a little expensive, but in the end - safest. The tellers do not usually make a decision to file a SAR, that would be unusual. They mark it as suspicious, and buck it up. An Analyst then decides whether to buck up to an Investigator. The Investigator, usually ACAMs certified, makes the call, writes the SAR, but often gets approval from the BSA Officer. Yes, SARs go into a Database. Each SAR gets examined by a FBI or Treasury agent, sometimes very quickly. However, enough “that one doesn’t look too bad/ the amount is too small” SARS and yes, they all get re-examined. Generally, one “Stupid Structuring SAR” doesn’t mean much. Lots of people get SARS filed as they do something foolish to avoid a CTR. If you get audited, the Auditor will have any SARs or CTRs in the file. But a CTR is not examined, nor does it trigger anything. However, they get checked if any sort of investigation calls up that name/ssn. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/24 "2022-01-02T14:34:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The bank is in a quandary: Report too much (CYA SARS) and you end up alienating good customers. Don’t report enough- and you could face fines and/or sanctions. This is incorrect. The financial institution is **not** supposed to notify the customer that they filed a SAR on them. If it’s one that gets cleared/not acted on, the customer will never know about it. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/25 "2022-01-02T19:43:28Z")
I used to work in a bank. I just received some information from the woman who did the filing of the Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs). There’s a difference between a Currency Transaction Report (CTR) and a SAR. According to her, a Currency Transaction Report is filed for the vast majority of cash transactions over $10,000. Some businesses can be exempt, some customers can be exempt, and government entities are exempt. Millions upon millions are filed annually and nothing comes of them unless the customer is under investigation for something. A SAR, on the other hand, is a report on a customer that appears to be avoiding some type of filing requirement or committing fraud or other type of reportable activity. Fraud such as lying on a loan application or submitting a fake tax return, check kiting, etc. A CTR has a 99.99 plus chance of anyone NOT looking at it. A SAR has a 100 percent chance of being looked at because law enforcement has SAR teams that look at all SARS in their jurisdiction. Hope this helps the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/26 "2022-01-02T21:30:30Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > A CTR has a 99.99 plus chance of anyone NOT looking at it. A SAR has a 100 percent chance of being looked at because law enforcement has SAR teams that look at all SARS in their jurisdiction. Which law enforcement? Federal? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/27 "2022-01-02T21:36:47Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Which law enforcement? SARs are filed with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network. That’s part of the Treasury Department. What happens after that, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/28 "2022-01-02T22:54:10Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > A SAR has a 100 percent chance of being looked at because law enforcement has SAR teams that look at all SARS in their jurisdiction. So the question would be - how deeply is it looked at? Banks will file SARs because they cost very little and cover their ass. Then it’s up to the Treasury to determine if the activity requires a deeper look and how deep. I’m going to guess that logically, they have software that looks for identifiable patterns that match certain evasive actions. Someone using a money order? No big deal. Someone using a dozen? Or a pattern of multiple uses of money orders? Or too many bought at once? Numbers too close but just under mandatory reporting numbers? (What are the mandatory reporting numbers regarding money orders and prepaid cards, or are they simply the CTR numbers?) ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/29 "2022-01-02T22:59:56Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Banks will file SARs because they cost very little AIUI, it costs nothing to file either a SAR or a CTR. > [@md-2000](#): > > and cover their ass And a bank will definitely file a SAR if there’s any hint of impropriety. The bank doesn’t want to be the entity withholding information about a suspected financial crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/30 "2022-01-03T04:12:42Z")
Indeed, it is against the law to let them know. But when the customer is told by some federal agent they are looking into a series of transactions at such and such a bank, anyone who is not a idiot can figure out that the bank finked them out. At the BSA/AML conferences this is often a item of discussion. > [@Railer13](#): > > Millions upon millions are filed annually and nothing comes of them unless the customer is under investigation for something. Right. > [@Railer13](#): > > A CTR has a 99.99 plus chance of anyone NOT looking at it. A SAR has a 100 percent chance of being looked at because law enforcement has SAR teams that look at all SARS in their jurisdiction. Correct. Although when the FBI is backed up, sometimes they pick a dollar threshold and skim those under a certain amount. By no means can this be depended upon. > [@pkbites](#): > > Which law enforcement? Federal? FBI and a Treasury Agent, sometimes they are funneled to another agency. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/31 "2022-01-03T04:52:42Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > AIUI, it costs nothing to file either a SAR or a CTR. It costs the banks time and money for employee wages. I have no idea what’s on a SAR form, but knowing government forms, it’s probably not a matter of copy-pate a transaction into another website. I assume the person doing the filing has to write a little essay “why I think this i suspicious” because odds are not every situation is covered by a series of check boxes. Plus some details about the customer. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/32 "2022-01-03T12:41:53Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > It costs the banks time and money for employee wages. Well, yes, but the actual filing of the form costs nothing. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/33 "2022-01-03T13:40:55Z")
So, say every Monday I withdraw $15K cash from my personal savings account, and every Friday I redeposit the 15K cash into the account. I do this continually every week. I’m just keeping it under my mattress during the week and redepositing it on Friday, nothing more. How long before someone notices this? And when the teller asks me to fill out that security form explaining what I am going to do with the withdrawal every time I write “Nunya”. What happens and when. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/34 "2022-01-03T15:03:44Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > when the teller asks me to fill out that security form What security form are you talking about? As explained above, every cash transaction above $10k will automatically trigger a CTR report. Also as previously noted, generally nothing happens when these reports are filed. But repeated activity like this on your account will probably get the attention of the Feds. What they might do, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/35 "2022-01-03T15:19:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed, it is against the law to let them know. But when the customer is told by some federal agent they are looking into a series of transactions at such and such a bank, anyone who is not a idiot can figure out that the bank finked them out. > > At the BSA/AML conferences this is often a item of discussion. > > > [@Railer13](#): > > > > Millions upon millions are filed annually and nothing comes of them unless the customer is under investigation for something. > > Right. I have personally filed SARs before. I can’t tell you if the Feds cleared or ignored them but I know they didn’t come back to us for any more information. I’m presuming they’d do that before contacting John Q Customer directly. Furthermore, if they are reaching out to the customer named in a SAR they deem it legit enough to look into, which means any FI (financial institution) should have filed a similar SAR whether it’s an institution the size of BofA or Wells or a small one-branch bank. It’s not the FIs fault & the customer shouldn’t be mad at them for following the law. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/36 "2022-01-03T15:32:32Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > I have personally filed SARs before. Perhaps you can answer the question as to how long of a form it is and how long it takes to fill out and file? I’m guessing it isn’t trivial, but how time-consuming is it? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/37 "2022-01-03T16:27:38Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > when the teller asks me to fill out that security form > > What security form are you talking about? I have withdrawn from my personal savings account (not a business account I have) amounts as low as 4 grand and the teller has handed me a form from their security department asking me how I intended to use the cash. I’m sure that this has more to do with people sending money to Nigerian princes and not money laundering. But it still bugs me. Like I’m a kid asking for his allowance. I never sign them and frequently write nunya in the box. Nothing has happened yet after years of this. But say it was over ten grand and I withdrew and redeposited it weekly, what happens? When I withdraw large amounts from my business account nobody blinks. I just took $96000 out in cash about 2 months ago and…nothing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/38 "2022-01-03T16:52:17Z")
We rarely did come back to ask for more info. And yes, that is true, but customers get mad at all sorts of reasons. You _personally_ filed a SAR? That would be unusual, generally it is the BSA officer. Or do you mean you prepared a SAR for filing? > [@Railer13](#): > > Perhaps you can answer the question as to how long of a form it is and how long it takes to fill out and file? I’m guessing it isn’t trivial, but how time-consuming is it? The form can be time consuming, however, for a FI that files them fairly often a lot of the fields will be saved as pre-filled. Then there is the body, which is anywhere from 1- 12 or more paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/39 "2022-01-03T17:40:03Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So, say every Monday I withdraw $15K cash from my personal savings account, and every Friday I redeposit the 15K cash into the account. I do this continually every week. I’m just keeping it under my mattress during the week and redepositing it on Friday, nothing more. > > How long before someone notices this? And when the teller asks me to fill out that security form explaining what I am going to do with the withdrawal every time I write “Nunya”. What happens and when. Worst case, when the feds come calling if they don’t like your explanation, the feds can seize the money until you properly explain it. In this situation, highly unlikely - since the money comes back the same week. They’d write you off as a nutbar trying at best to waste their time. They might start to wonder if, for example, you took out nice neat bundles of twenties or hundreds and then brought in a messy collection of random bills instead. That might suggest some form of cleaning up a cash business’s transactions under the table, so again - no explanation, sayonara cash. You have the option to refuse to answer, and then they have the option to seize cash and freeze accounts until they get a valid explanation. Presumably, they may need a tame judge to sign off on it. I presume once they seize the cash, your attempt to get it back needs to be filed in court under penalty of perjury? (I read something once about Treasury using a program to track large bill serial numbers. Worst case they could ask the bank to track this to see if you are doing some sort of cash exchange instead.) ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2022, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/40 "2022-01-03T21:34:42Z")
The fact that you were asked the question about what you intended to do with the cash for the personal account, and not the business account, makes me wonder if the interested party was the bank’s marketing department and not security. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/41 "2022-01-04T00:11:14Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I have withdrawn from my personal savings account (not a business account I have) amounts as low as 4 grand and the teller has handed me a form from their security department asking me how I intended to use the cash. Actually, (and this is strictly a WAG on my part), it might be part of the bank’s attempt to prevent fraud and help out their customers. If Minnie Mae is drawing cash to send to Germany that she thinks will bail her grandson out of jail, the teller would then alert the manager who will try to talk Minnie out of sending cash overseas. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2022, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002/42 "2022-01-04T00:57:55Z")
Yeah, like I said, Nigerian prince stuff. But I still don’t write anything on that form except nunya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-credit-card-companies-report-to-the-irs/957002.md?page=3)