# What do Germans call Germany? Germany vs Deutschland **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 8, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659 "2011-02-08T16:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/21 "2011-02-08T19:24:00Z")
Psst, Finkle, I have another surprise for you: In Germany, we call Great Britian Grossbritannien (fully: Vereinigtes Königreich von Grossbritannien und Nordirland), and we call the US Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika, so we don’t use the names the Brits/ Yanks self-appoint, either! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/22 "2011-02-08T19:26:47Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > They call the English Channel something else, too, right? > > (If I recall my high school French, it translates to “The Sleeve”, or something like that.) La Manche ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/23 "2011-02-08T19:37:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Joseph Stalin (Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili) > Christopher Columbus (Christoffa Corombo) Stalin is not a translation, though, it’s a _nom de guerre_ that he adopted for himself, isn’t it? And did Columbus Latinize his name himself? I thought people did that back then to sound educated. > [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Hence the German name for France: _Frankreich_. Frank Reich also used to be play QB for the Buffalo Bills. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/24 "2011-02-08T19:43:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Stalin is not a translation, though, it’s a _nom de guerre_ that he adopted for himself, isn’t it? The Stalin part, but not the Joseph part. > [@](#): > > And did Columbus Latinize his name himself? I thought people did that back then to sound educated. “Christopher” is not Latin. In any case, my understanding is that he might have used Italian (Cristoforo Colombo) or Spanish (Cristóbal Colón) himself, but not “Christopher Columbus” and certainly not the several other versions used in various languages. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/25 "2011-02-08T20:02:37Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And did Columbus Latinize his name himself? I thought people did that back then to sound educated. For his surname, Columbus typically went by the form appropriate for the country he was in: Colom when he lived in Portugal, Colon in Spain. I’m not sure if he ever used the form “Columbus” himself. In the Latin version of his [letter of discovery](http://usm.maine.edu/maps/web-document/1/3/sub-/3-transcription-of-the-basel-1494-edition) his name appears as “Christoforus Colom.” (He signed the original Spanish version simply “The Admiral.”) He commonly signed his name as “Xroferens,” “Christ-bearer,” without surname. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/26 "2011-02-08T21:04:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Nobody can claim ownership of the name of a piece of land the way they can validly claim ownership of themselves. The people inhabiting a given territory have an obvious claim. It’s not the _same_ claim as that on one’s own person, but it’s a natural one and widely recognized. We _have_ moved toward a common (not universal) convention of accepting new place and personal names in their native forms. The persistence of the older convention with respect to older names is just inertial. > [@acsenray](#): > > But English people can speak English to refer to a “Deutschland” anywhere in the world. You don’t have to learn another language to refer to a place where they happen to speak a different language. “Germany” is an English word, just like “wall.” “Deutschland” is a German word, just like “Wand.” It’s not “learning another language” to use words from that language to refer to things that are natively named in that language. If English speakers can refer to _bratwurst_ and _pilsener_, I don’t see why we shouldn’t refer to _Deutschland_, except for the inertia of established usage. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/27 "2011-02-08T21:17:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Mark Anthony (Marcus Antonius) My Italian students are always incredulous about this one. And then they laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/28 "2011-02-08T21:34:23Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > We _have_ moved toward a common (not universal) convention of accepting new place and personal names in their native forms. The persistence of the older convention with respect to older names is just inertial. It’s not _just_ inertial. I actively object to excessive standardization, especially standardization across languages. It’s presumptuous to tell people speaking a different language how they should refer to things, just because you think you have some kind of stake in what they’re referring to. It’s meddlesome bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/29 "2011-02-08T21:37:05Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Obviously, it works the other way round, too. The French word for “England” is not “England”. They call it Angleterre, which literally means “land of the anglais”. “Anglais” really isn’t all that far from “English”. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/30 "2011-02-08T21:44:51Z")
Actually, if I gave the matter some thought, I could probably come up with dozens of historical figures whose names tend to be Anglicized in American textbooks. It’s not immediately obvious why some names are changed and others aren’t. What about the Reformation leader John Calvin? He was French, not English, but history books in the English speaking world rarely call him “Jean” Calvin. History books in the English speaking world also tell us of… Russian emperors Peter (not Pyotr) the Great, or Nicholas (not Nikolai) II. Prussian king Frederick (not Friedrich) the Great. Lev Trotsky and Lev Tolstoy became Leon and Leo, respectively. Miguel Serveto is usually Michael Servetus, Tomasso d’Aquino is always Thomas Aquinas. I some cases, that’s because the names in question became famous in their Latin versions, and were later translated from Latin rather from the celeb’s native language. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/31 "2011-02-08T21:45:50Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > They call it Angleterre, which literally means “land of the anglais”. “Anglais” really isn’t all that far from “English”. Actually Angleterre and England are both “the land of the Angles”. A Germanic tribe, like the Franks. English and Anglais are both the language of the Angles. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/32 "2011-02-08T22:33:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s presumptuous to tell people speaking a different language how they should refer to things, just because you think you have some kind of stake in what they’re referring to. I don’t disagree with that. I was speaking from the other perspective, thinking about the logic of the words _we_ use to refer to other people’s places. I don’t see why I _should_ say “Germany” (or whatever example) when I freely incorporate other terms and personal names in “untranslated” forms–except that at this point it would sound odd to say “Deutschland” in English, and confuse some people. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/33 "2011-02-08T22:37:59Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Actually, if I gave the matter some thought, I could probably come up with dozens of historical figures whose names tend to be Anglicized in American textbooks. Jesus, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/34 "2011-02-08T23:11:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The people inhabiting a given territory have an obvious claim. It’s not the _same_ claim as that on one’s own person, but it’s a natural one and widely recognized. > > We _have_ moved toward a common (not universal) convention of accepting new place and personal names in their native forms. The persistence of the older convention with respect to older names is just inertial. > > It’s not “learning another language” to use words from that language to refer to things that are natively named in that language. If English speakers can refer to _bratwurst_ and _pilsener_, I don’t see why we shouldn’t refer to _Deutschland_, except for the inertia of established usage. Inertia of established usage IS language. That’s pretty much the definition of language. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/35 "2011-02-08T23:12:56Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Inertia of established usage IS language. That’s pretty much the definition of language. If that were true, we’d never have any new words. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/36 "2011-02-09T04:41:18Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > And the former Prime Minister of Canada John Christian. And let’s not forget Prime Minister Rock Waterhole! ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/37 "2011-02-09T05:37:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And let’s not forget Prime Minister Rock Waterhole! [On second thought…](http://www.billcasselman.com/whats_in_a_canadian_name/wiacn_sample_three.htm) [Quote=Bill Casselman] During his years of political power, a hoary folk etymology, very common and very wrong, made the rounds about Trudeau. You could ask anyone on the street in Québec and be told that Trudeau was, bien entendu, from trou d’eau, a supposed old term for water hole. And of course there were vulgar jokes told that depended on this spurious etymology. In stark linguistic fact, Trudeau as a surname goes back to a remote ancestor who bore the Germanic warrior name Trudo. The root is Old High German drud, which meant ‘strong, hardened, tough, mighty.’ [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/38 "2011-02-09T06:05:03Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t disagree with that. I was speaking from the other perspective, thinking about the logic of the words _we_ use to refer to other people’s places. I don’t see why I _should_ say “Germany” (or whatever example) when I freely incorporate other terms and personal names in “untranslated” forms–except that at this point it would sound odd to say “Deutschland” in English, and confuse some people. And that’s why we don’t do it. The English word simply _is_ Germany. There’s nothing special about proper nouns that make them immune from translation. Countries are perhaps the most routinely translated (because they’re big, important, and in relatively small quantity), but as has been pointed out, personal names frequently are as well; at various times, if you were well-educated, it would not be abnormal to go by John Smith in England, Jean Lefebvre in France, and Iohannes Faber on the title page of anything you wrote. Numerous geographical names other than countries are translated (Florence, Venice, Milan, Rome, Lisbon, Copenhagen, The Hague, Moscow, Athens, and Cairo for _Firenze, Venezia, Milano, Roma, Lisboa, København, Den Haag, Москва/Moskva, Αθήνα/Athīna_ and _القاهرة/al-Qāhira_ come to mind). And has been also pointed out to you, English-speakers are hardly the only ones to do this: that same list could be _Florence, Venise, Milan, Rome, Lisbonne, Copenhague, La Haye, Moscou, Athènes et Le Caire_, or _Florenz, Venedig, Meiland, Rom, Lissabon, Kopenhagen, Den Haag, Moskau, Athen und Kairo_. This is just a feature of human language and does not have to be accounted for. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/39 "2011-02-09T06:17:22Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Otherwise, we would speak of the composer John Bach, … Whom the French frequently call _Jean-Sébastien Bach_, incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659/40 "2011-02-09T06:19:28Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > If that were true, we’d never have any new words. And that’s exactly why we have translated proper names, as well as translated everything else: because language changes in the process of getting from one person to another. Language has also changed in this regard; in my lifetime we’ve gone from Bombay, Calcutta, and Ivory Coast to Mumbai, Kolkata, and Côte d’Ivoire. The last shreds of Peking have vanished, and Turin seems to be making a concerted move towards Torino, at least as of the Olympics (although the same didn’t happen in Athens). In general, these have been at the request of the denizens of the place in question. Perhaps at some point, we’ll start calling it Deutschland. But frankly I doubt it, since inertia is also a force in language, although not an irresistible one; the Germans don’t seem to mind, and as has been demonstrated, there’s nothing anomalous about translating proper nouns, so there’s no impetus for such a change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-germans-call-germany-germany-vs-deutschland/570659.md?page=3)