# What do Hillary supporters criticize Bernie about? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 25, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114 "2016-02-25T17:55:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/41 "2016-02-26T05:19:40Z")
I was thinking before I read this thread that most Hillary supporters seem to have more of a problem with Sanders supporters than Sanders himself. Still, reading some of the posts here have given voice to some of my own misgivings about Sanders, his campaign, and his supporters, including and especially how it reminds me of Trump. Yeah, yeah, what I call Sanders supporters’ naivete (especially the ones on social media), they call my cynicism and willingness to sacrifice people and principles out of laziness, but I just don’t see Sanders accomplishing anything other than MAYBE introducing his ideas and positions to a larger audience. I certainly don’t think he’s going to be President, even if he could be an effective President, which I don’t think he would be. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/42 "2016-02-26T06:13:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think it’s revealing that most Democratic voters seem to like European-style social democracy, but just can’t pull the trigger on such a candidate because the voters aren’t ready. > > Which means it’s entirely fair to say that Democrats do indeed want 1970s-style Scandinavian social democracy here. Their moderation is transparently strategic. > [@adaher](#): > > If the means don’t matter, just the ends, sure. But I think a lot of Sanders supporters, especially the young ones, want a better politics, not the same games and lies and used cars salesman acts we’re used to. You understand that these 2 remarks are pretty much at odds with one another, right? Anyhoo, 1. FYI: SDMB posters are not “Most Democratic voters.” 2. To the extent that American lefties like Scandinavia, it’s not oriented especially towards the 1970s. Nice rhetorical flourish though. 3. I agree that Sanders’ points about campaign finance and Citizen’s United are a draw. 4. For myself, I’d like to see the US in the best 40% of the OECD ranking tables. I’d like us to have top marks on ease of starting a business, transparency (lower corruption), infant mortality, life expectancy, health care efficiency, etc. Generally speaking, that would point us in a more socialist direction, though I’d appreciate technocratic implementation. Don’t get me wrong: we do well on a lot of the rankings. I’d like my country to do better though and I believe that I would feel that way regardless of my place of birth. 5. I don’t think too much about Clinton’s vs. Bernie’s policies frankly. Their vastly different electability is show stopper for me. Hillary’s outstanding qualifications and strong work ethic also play a role. I can see voting for Bernie for reasons related to the Overton Window though. I haven’t really parsed their 2 plans on their merits though, as other considerations have made that unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/43 "2016-02-26T08:42:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I think it’s because Bernie is considered to be prettier than Hillary and he draws bigger crowds than she does. He is also nicer to young people, as far as I can tell. (Not actually kidding!) Oh, wait. What are her supporters saying? That he’s Jewish, which is not done, and male, which is done too much. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/44 "2016-02-26T09:56:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think it’s revealing that most Democratic voters seem to like European-style social democracy, but just can’t pull the trigger on such a candidate because the voters aren’t ready. > > Which means it’s entirely fair to say that Democrats do indeed want 1970s-style Scandinavian social democracy here. Their moderation is transparently strategic. Yeah, so? Ooh, you caught us. We’re so busted. :rolleyes: Problem for you is, you can’t make hay with that unless you can pin it on a major Democratic official or at least a strategist. That’s the nice thing about being slyly strategic: your most perspicacious opponents will know exactly where you really stand, but we retain enough deniability that you can’t make the charge stick. 😛 > [@Nonsuch](#): > > People who don’t vote are no different, politically, from people who do. There is no evidence suggesting otherwise. As I noted in the other thread, [this is wrong.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19132463&postcount=291) I agree with all your other points though. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/45 "2016-02-26T10:47:33Z")
I do want a fucking revolution. Just not a redistributivist one. I don’t regard socialism as very revolutionary and I regard it as reductionistically simplistic. There are no revolutionaries running for the office whose revolution I wish to participate in. Therefore I want a competent manager, a policy geek who loves banging out solutions and negotiating agreeements. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/46 "2016-02-26T15:06:22Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > According to [this article](http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/27/bernie-sanders-record-in-congress-shows-little-soc/?page=all), Sanders introduced 353 bills over his 25 years in Congress. In her eight years as a Senator, Clinton sponsored 409 bills. Both have sponsored three bills that eventually became law. Bush criticized Clinton last year saying she only had her name on 3 bills that became law. And while that’s true, [it’s not an adequate measure of productivity in the Senate:](http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/jun/23/jeb-bush/did-hillary-clinton-have-her-name-only-three-laws-/) > [@](#): > > But there are other ways that Senators can influence legislation even if they don’t end up as the sponsor of the final version: > > Co-sponsored bills: There were 74 bills that became law that Clinton co-sponsored. For example, she was one of 54 cosponsors on the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, signed in January 2009 by President Barack Obama. (The fact that she co-sponsored these bills doesn’t tell us much about her role in their passage, but Bush referred to bills that “she has her name” on, so it’s worth noting those she co-sponsored.) > She co-sponsored one version but another version passed: For example, she co-sponsored S.1, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in January 2009 while the version that passed was H.R. 1. > Sponsored amendments: She put forward amendments that influenced laws sponsored by others. She sponsored three amendments on a bill for security and disaster funding. The amendments passed in 2007 and the bill passed in 2008. > Two experts who study Congress – Norman Ornstein, a scholar at American Enterprise Institute, and Sarah Binder, a political science professor at George Washington University and Brookings Institution scholar – said that the number of sponsored or co-sponsored bills signed into law isn’t a thorough measure of effectiveness or productivity for a member of the Senate. > > “Offering amendments on the floor, holding hearings, contributing to oversight, helping to negotiate agreements, pushing federal agencies to be responsive to constituents back home – all of these might contribute to making a senator ‘effective,’ but none of these endeavors of course would show up in a count of bills sponsored or passed or enacted,” Binder said. I’m guessing Sanders has also co-sponsored bills and amendments, though I can’t find the numbers right now. But just saying that each only has 3 laws passed with their names on them is incomplete information. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh, wait. What are her supporters saying? That he’s Jewish, which is not done, and male, which is done too much. Well, her supporters are also saying a bunch of stuff in this very thread. Do you not agree with what’s being said? I don’t see anyone criticizing him for being Jewish or male. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/47 "2016-02-26T15:13:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think it’s revealing that most Democratic voters seem to like European-style social democracy, but just can’t pull the trigger on such a candidate because the voters aren’t ready. > > Which means it’s entirely fair to say that Democrats do indeed want 1970s-style Scandinavian social democracy here. Their moderation is transparently strategic. Democrats? Not really. Some really are moderate (by U.S. standards). Me personally? Of course. Not the 1970 part, but the rest. Social democracy is pretty much the pinnacle right now. It’s the exact moderate position between the two extremes and seeks to give us the benefits of both. And, since you brought up Scandinavia, it also produces the happiest people, which is kinda the moral imperative. What I don’t get is why people have a problem with this. Oh, and Hillary supporters call (some of) Bernie’s supporters racist and sexist, and blame that on him not kicking them out. There’s a reason the BernieBro meme caught on: it pretty much describes Redditors, who Sanders is heavily courting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/48 "2016-02-26T15:32:25Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I do want a fucking revolution. Just not a redistributivist one. What, then, a libertarian one? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/49 "2016-02-26T16:27:42Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. To the extent that American lefties like Scandinavia, it’s not oriented especially towards the 1970s. Nice rhetorical flourish though. While I thought the rest of the post was silly (for it’s "AH HA"ness and its conflating the farther left leaning SDMB posters with the entire Democratic party), I think this is fair. Scandinavia in the 1970s was at its most… social democracy, if you will. Since then they have done quite a bit of deregulating and liberalizing the economy (its still more socialized than other countries, but not nearly to the extent it was in the 70s). ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/50 "2016-02-26T16:39:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There’s a reason the BernieBro meme caught on: it pretty much describes Redditors, Why do you keep bringing up Reddit? Are you trying to start a board war? ---
**Author:** ![CrusticeIsServed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@CrusticeIsServed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrusticeIsServed)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/51 "2016-02-26T16:45:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What, then, a libertarian one? Belsham stated that any libertarian state would need to redistribute wealth gained during the previous government to ensure no person had an upper hand due to government influence ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/52 "2016-02-26T16:56:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [QUOTE=AHunter3] > I do want a fucking revolution. Just not a redistributivist one. What, then, a libertarian one? [/quote] Anarchist. I want a cautious conservative radical who will start some experimental communication and decision-making structures aimed at _finding out_, methodically and scientifically, what the most democratic and egalitarian participatory design can actually work. I want one who will take some incremental steps towards taking decision-making authority out of the hands of a few elected or appointed people and transferring it to the people at large — perhaps by retaining our existing election-based leaders as the issue-debaters but gradually folding in some general-pop referendum consultation as far as the actual voting process goes, and also opening the proposal-making process to a wider range of citizen-based initiatives. I want to see some funded experiments in cooperative labor and materials sharing based on decentralized networks later on down the pike, making use of the best of those above-mentioned communication and decision-making structures, to see about replacing the entire specific reciprocity system (the market economy, the money system, competition) with a sharing and cooperating general reciprocity system, to play with it, to see where and how it might work, for whom, and for what. I don’t want any sudden lurching changes that result in the lights going out, store-window bashing and looting, mob rule led by least-common-denominator demagogues (but hell, we’ve lurched towards THAT one within our _existing_ structure). But I’m tired of “leaders”. And I’m tired of a vision of democracy that can’t think of any more democratic direction we can go aside from looking for yet more marginalized outgroups that have been subjected to categorical oppression or categorical left-out-itude and trying to ameliorate those unfairnesses. The latter is a good goal but it’s not the only direction in which democratic and egalitarian progress can be made. I’m totally unimpressed with band-aid approaches to the market economy. “Let’s compete and let’s reward the victors in the competition, but oh wait let’s redistribute the results so that the losers starve a little less and are deprived a little less and aren’t quite so totally rendered incapable of competing in the next round”. Fuck that shit. The problem isn’t a too excessive reward to the victors, the problem is that we’re still playing cutthroat competition despite a species-wide surplus and plentitude sufficient for us all. (The socialists realize the latter but are oblivious to the stupidity of continuing to play the competition game in the first place). ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/53 "2016-02-27T00:40:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s not really an excuse. Ron Wyden, Mike Lee, Pat Toomey, and Bill Nelson were all pretty productive from the start. It’s about reaching across the aisle. Senators with Presidential ambition generally avoid that in today’s climate. That’s why Obama backed off from his work with McCain on ethics reform. Clinton, as per her usual practice, played it safe and avoided making waves. Sanders of course, is probably the most leftist member of the Senate and wasn’t even interested in finding common ground with Democrats, much less Republicans. And the VA work he did was pretty insufficient, although I’m reluctant to blame Congress for executive branch criminality. Sanders wasn’t in the VA’s chain of command. > [@CarnalK](#): > > So you’re agreeing that Hillary didn’t get anything done, but that’s ok because she quit after only one and a half terms? It’s probably not ok for reasons that adaher mentioned, but I just do not think a good record as a senator is necessary for becoming our country’s top executive. Obama and Kennedy did not get much accomplish in the Senate and they were both good presidents. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/54 "2016-02-27T00:54:07Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I want one who will take some incremental steps towards taking decision-making authority out of the hands of a few elected or appointed people and transferring it to the people at large — perhaps by retaining our existing election-based leaders as the issue-debaters but gradually folding in some general-pop referendum consultation as far as the actual voting process goes, and also opening the proposal-making process to a wider range of citizen-based initiatives. Sounds like California. > [@AHunter3](#): > > I want to see some funded experiments in cooperative labor and materials sharing based on decentralized networks later on down the pike, making use of the best of those above-mentioned communication and decision-making structures, to see about replacing the entire specific reciprocity system (the market economy, the money system, competition) with a sharing and cooperating general reciprocity system, to play with it, to see where and how it might work, for whom, and for what. Sounds like communes. They have been tried, off and on, for a couple centuries. I’m not putting them down. Some were good places to live in. The most long-lasting tend to have a religious glue. Do you know much about the Hutterites?: > **[Hutterites](https://www.hutterites.org/)** > > All about Hutterites, the people, their beliefs, their lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/55 "2016-02-27T01:41:19Z")
And [kibbutzim](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/kibbutz.html) in Israel, which were not usually religious but more out of the socialist tradition. But it after early success the movement faded only experiencing some resurgence with some elements of differential pay and a professional management structure being introduced. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/56 "2016-02-27T02:06:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Well, her supporters are also saying a bunch of stuff in this very thread. Do you not agree with what’s being said? I don’t see anyone criticizing him for being Jewish or male. Sorry about that. I take many of these criticisms seriously. I think Bernie will have a very hard time once inaugurated. I am worried about it. But I remember a lot of outsiders, including several state governors with almost no Washington experience, running for President, acting like utter amateurs, and muddling through. Mrs Clinton’s husband was one of them. I’m not sure the ostensible experts and grownups are that much more worth listening to than the outsider hippies. We’ve had at least one economist on the Council of Economic Advisers (A. Goolsbee) who thought adjustable rate mortgages with balloon payments were _just fine._ And he wants to talk trash about Jerry Friedman? The Ivy League elites are blinded to the problems of the poor by their own aristocratic biases, and can no longer expect to be trusted. A vote for Bernie is a vote for where the party of the left in our two-party system needs to be. It’s a wake-up call. It’s not a vote for a smooth ride, but an intentional provocation, and I am OK with that. I don’t know if there any actual trustworthy grownups. But I don’t think Hillary is actually any more one than Bernie. She’s just more elitist. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/57 "2016-02-27T02:21:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and Hillary supporters call (some of) Bernie’s supporters racist and sexist, and blame that on him not kicking them out. There’s a reason the BernieBro meme caught on: it pretty much describes Redditors, who Sanders is heavily courting. I suspect the main reason they call his supporters racist & sexist because that is a standard fallback of the Clinton faction: to demonize the alternatives as racist, sexist bigots. They use it on Republicans, and on old-school white New Deal populists, and they probably believe it when they say it. > [@CrusticeIsServed](#): > > Belsham stated that any libertarian state would need to redistribute wealth gained during the previous government to ensure no person had an upper hand due to government influence Thomas or William? I don’t know the Belshams, where do I start? Anyway, yes, that would be “equality of opportunity.” Good point. > [@AHunter3](#): > > The problem isn’t a too excessive reward to the victors, the problem is that we’re still playing cutthroat competition despite a species-wide surplus and plentitude sufficient for us all. (The socialists realize the latter but are oblivious to the stupidity of continuing to play the competition game in the first place). I think that Bernie, with his egalitarian populism & his ideas for massive subsidies to universities, is more in line with you than Hillary is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/58 "2016-02-27T16:52:04Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I suspect the main reason they call his supporters racist & sexist because that is a standard fallback of the Clinton faction: to demonize the alternatives as racist, sexist bigots. They use it on Republicans, and on old-school white New Deal populists, and they probably believe it when they say it. Can you actually \*quote \*any of them saying it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-do-hillary-supporters-criticize-bernie-about/747114/59 "2016-02-27T21:56:25Z")
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